Women should keep silent in the assembly?

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm done repeating myself.

And I'm not poking at how that is not an ideal arrangement. Saying there are primary and secondary necessarily means things are not equal. The example with the president and vice president does mean inherently things are not equal.
An ideal marriage is an equal partnership, not "primary" and "secondary."

 

[epronovost]

Protected and honored - yet not free to make their own choices?

Not really honored either. The idea that they are honored by being protected, isolated and commanded means that the honor is not theirs it belongs to someone else. The honor of a woman belongs to man in such a context. The woman is what makes the man shine not herself. A patriarchal system seeks to rob women of their very honor for the profit of men.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

And I'm not poking at how that is not an ideal arrangement. Saying there are primary and secondary necessarily means things are not equal. The example with the president and vice president does mean inherently things are not equal.
An ideal marriage is an equal partnership, not "primary" and "secondary."

You literally don't know what I meant about primary roles because you didn't read my posts.

Honestly - you've got everything wrong.

Read my posts before chiming in again.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Not really honored either. The idea that they are honored by being protected, isolated and commanded means that the honor is not theirs it belongs to someone else. The honor of a woman belongs to man in such a context. The woman is what makes the man shine not herself. A patriarchal system seeks to rob women of their very honor for the profit of men.

I agreed with everything up until the last line.

 

[epronovost]

I agreed with everything up until the last line.

Why so?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Why so?

I don't believe that a patriarchal system seeks to rob women of their very honor for the profit of men.

Just like how I don't believe that a matriarchal system would seek to rob men of their very honor for the profit or women.

 

[Shakeel]

No, its possible in reality

It has to be done before it's known to be possible. Mice and humans are not the same thing. Mice reproduce with their siblings. Should humans too?

tested successfully

Where is this healthy adult that was born this way? Where is the test?
I don't think you understand how scientific tests are made. They're made by experiments. No experiments of this so far. In reality you need a man to get pregnant ad every other woman on the planet needs a man to get pregnant.

 

[Shakeel]

Protected and honored - yet not free to make their own choices?

They make choices.

 

[Shakeel]

The idea that they are honored by being protected, isolated and commanded

That's your idea.

The honor of a woman belongs to man in such a context.

Nope.

The woman is what makes the man shine not herself.

How does the woman make the man shine? Do you mean how he smiles because he's happy?

A patriarchal system seeks to rob women of their very honor for the profit of men.

That would be the modern Western society.

 

[epronovost]

It has to be done before it's known to be possible. Mice and humans are not the same thing. Mice reproduce with their siblings. Should humans too?

Humans and mice have the same reproductive system. Humans, just like mice can reproduce with their siblings and cousins and, at time, have done so. It produce children with birth defect at much higher rates though, but often perfectly normal children too. Should human have children with their siblings is a completely different question than can they have children with their siblings. One is a moral question to which I would answer no, but if it does happen and a child is born that child should have the same rights and dignity than anybody else while the other is a biological question. That I can kill someone doesn't mean that I should, but that I shouldn't kill someone doesn't mean that I can't.

Where is this healthy adult that was born this way? Where is the test?

The litters of mice born this way were healthy and perfectly normal. If a human test was to be conducted. We can have all the expectation that it would go perfectly fine.

This all leads me to an interesting question to you. Since we have the scientific know how to do it. Would you consider the act of creating a new human life without genetic material coming from a man as immoral?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

They make choices.

Oh - so a married woman can meet with men who are not her husband if she wants to?

 

[Nakosis]

For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

IMO, it is a thing of the past. Women of that time had less opportunity for education and leadership experience though no fault of their own. It was a cultural problem of the times.
People who keep it alive today can't think outside of the religious box they have built for themselves.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

IMO, it is a thing of the past. Women of that time had less opportunity for education and leadership experience though no fault of their own. It was a cultural problem of the times.
People who keep it alive today can't think outside of the religious box they have built for themselves.

Yet - these verses speak only about women speaking - or rather officiating - at the church meetings or worship services - not society in general.

So - can't the religious text in the "religious box" dictate what happens at the religious gatherings and not be viewed as instruction for people outside of the religion?

 

[Nakosis]

Yet - these verses speak only about women speaking - or rather officiating - at the church meetings or worship services - not society in general.

So - can't the religious text in the "religious box" dictate what happens at the religious gatherings and not be viewed as instruction for people outside of the religion?

Perhaps but I think for many, religion is a way of life. Not just something that happens at religion gatherings.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Perhaps but I think for many, religion is a way of life. Not just something that happens at religion gatherings.

True - but the text reads "keep silence in the churches" - so they would be wrong to do so - according to their own religious text.

 

[Shakeel]

Yet - these verses speak only about women speaking - or rather officiating - at the church meetings or worship services - not society in general.

So - can't the religious text in the "religious box" dictate what happens at the religious gatherings and not be viewed as instruction for people outside of the religion?

Aren't we supposed to be at our best at the place of worship?

This strikes me as illogical. The same way some Muslim women do not wear hijab outside in front of men and make sure to wear hijab while praying alone at home (which is necessary for the prayer to be valid). It's like they're taking a moment to be religious and then leave it. I feel the same way about Christians who cover their head in church.

Lack of education.

Today in churches there are female pastors.

 

[Shakeel]

Oh - so a married woman can meet with men who are not her husband if she wants to?

She can if she wants to and has the opportunity, but if she has no valid reason and permission from her husband then she's sinful. Religious people tend to choose to do what is right.

 

[Shakeel]

Humans, just like mice can reproduce with their siblings and cousins and, at time, have done so.

I know, I asked should they?

If a human test was to be conducted. We can have all the expectation that it would go perfectly fine.

No, that's not what we derive from animal testing. Nobody cares if something goes wrong with a mouse or hundreds of mice. They can even go extinct and we'll be fine. We don't roll the dice with humans and I certainly wouldn't roll the dice with regards to my children.

Would you consider the act of creating a new human life without a man

I don't consider it possible. I also don't consider it creating. If it happened it would be God's creation still.

 

[epronovost]

No, that's not what we derive from animal testing.

Actually, that's the entire purpose of animal testing. If it works on them and leaves them fine, you get the authorization to start human testing and if those go fine you get to sell your product to anybody with all insurance. That's what we do for medication, cosmetic, new GMO's and a variety of consumption product. You can skip animal testing and instead operate with tissue samples for some produce, but of course such an experiment world require animal testing if only to refine the process. There was several failures before success and since gestation for mice is 20 days instead of 9 months and the consequences of failure of no importance as you mentioned.

If it happened it would be God's creation still.

So you would consider the idea of a child being born from the genetic material of two women without the input of a man as a perfectly moral type of action?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I feel the same way about Christians who cover their head in church..

It is no longer the custom for christian women to cover their heads in church. So who are you talking about?