Women should keep silent in the assembly?

[Wandering Monk]

For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

And folks wonder why young people are leaving religion.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly? Other than sheer sexism of course. I'm not speaking of women chatting and gossiping. No one should be rude--men cannot do this either. I'm speaking of the contribution to the learning and worship.

The most well known religious prohibition is from 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak," and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Be aware, of course, that this sort of thing doesn't just exist in Christianity, but other religions as well. Thus, I hope we get responses from multiple religions.

In Orthodox Judaism, for example, the tradition is not to have women rabbis. Now it is controversial there because some women are pushing the envelope and gaining semikha (ordination). That causes a lot of anxiety and hard feelings among those who are opposed. For example, I was reading just the other day about a woman who taught in a Jewish school in the UK. When she received her ordination, she was let go from her job.

BTW, this post is not meant to be a slam of any religion or sect. I think that all of them have made a lot of progress compared to how things were in the past.

Anyhow, this post was inspired by visiting a website outlining the beliefs of Messianic Israelism (I was hoping to better understand one of the writers in this forum). So while some may try to claim that this is a thing of the past, trust me, in some groups it is still very much alive.

Okay, let the discussion begin.

I believe that God create Men and Women equal - but different. He - ideally - wanted them to fulfill particular roles.

Women were intended to be mothers - to care for and nurture the next generation - every generation - and to assist their husbands.

Men were intended to protect their wives and children from both physical and spiritual threats and to assist their wives.

One of the many ways that God has assisted Mankind in their duties is the bestowal of the Priesthood - the authority to act in His name.

I believe that this authority has only been extended to Men - who were designed to bear the ultimate responsibility of their family.

This is why women are told not to "speak" (which I interpret to mean "officiate" or "lead") at worship functions - because that is the role of those who hold the Priesthood.

The New Testament claims that there were women who assisted Priesthood holders during their ministry - so I do not believe they were meant to be completely silent - but they were instructed to take a subservient role in the presence of Priesthood holders.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Many people do care what God can teach us. Does that mean females should always stay silent? No, females has a lot of good wisdom too.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess we should listen to you instead of God.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess we should listen to you instead of God.

I just Said my understanding of it, og you or anyone Else do not wish to take my words as what you believe, that is no problem og course

 

[idea]

It is true that women bear children. Within the animal and insect kingdoms, some colonies are ruled by males, other by females. In this period of time, as much work becomes less physical in nature, gender roles are slowly reversing. Is it more physically taxing to sit in front of a computer all day? Or chase kids, haul laundry, cook, and clean? Contemplating the number of single moms, vs single dads, as well as Contemplating average life expectancy to incarceration rates of different genders, I believe women are now more often the "protectors" of children, and more often the "providers" as well. Cultural stereotypes die hard, there is good in all. With time hopefully we will all be allowed to be people - choosing and acting how circumstances and life take us.

 

[Yerda]

And women are treated horribly in India, too, despite Hinduism's multitudes of goddesses.

Like violence, pinning sexism on religion is often (but not always) mistaking the cause for the rationalisation. That's my take. Over and out.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

This is a good topic and I am glad you raised it....



This all goes back to the concept of headship. If you go back to Eden, the role of husband and father was “complimented” by the role of wife and mother. Each had clearly defined roles with no need for one to encroach on the other’s role in the family arrangement. It’s like any good company, it has its President or CEO and a Vice President who supports the one whose job it is to run the company smoothly. Each person knows their job description, and is happy to do what they are instructed to do by their boss. Ambition is usually created by pride, so ambitions can lead to conflict if one is not qualified for the other person's job, even though they may be capable.

So if someone within that company tries to usurp the role of someone superior in rank, (or with better qualification) we experience ill feeling.....and if it is done with jealousy or malice, the trouble is magnified.

God designed families to be run by one CEO, and with the support of his Vice President, each family was to be run like a successful company, with happy employees who know their job and do it well. No one could complain that they were undervalued or underpaid...the rewards were priceless.


Seeing women usurp the role of men in Christendom is not surprising. The Apostle Paul also said....
1 Corinthians 11:3...
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.“

So even Jesus has a head over him.

With that arrangement in mind, women did not have a teaching role in the congregation, but they were teachers of others outside of it and had a large part in the preaching activity. This follows that when congregations met for Bible study, song and prayer, which dominated their gatherings, women were to know their place. Those who want to go outside of what is written in the scriptures assume that God’s rules only apply to ancient times, and now that women have gained equality, they should be able to compete with men in all fields including positions in the congregation of God’s worshippers. That is a false judgment. God’s rules never go out of fashion, they apply universally so that peace and order is maintained. It was so from the beginning.

It doesn’t mean that women must remain silent altogether, but they are not assigned teaching roles in the congregations. This is not a position of power, but one of responsibility. God holds men accountable for what they teach and how they handle themselves in the congregation and in their personal lives. Elders were those with spiritual qualifications, but not from doing a theological course at some seminary or Bible college.....their qualifications were spiritual and actively demonstrated. (1 Timothy 3:1-12)


No human is free to rewrite God’s rules, but to humbly accept the assignment given with no jealousy or animosity....it just creates divisions and contentions.


Jehovah’s Witnesses stick to what the Bible teaches and humility prevents any woman from reaching out for something that does not belong to her....look where it got Eve....

We understand that God put these things in place for a reason, and we respect his arrangement.

I cannot put my finger on it, but I feel a lot of irony for reading this.

 

[Shakeel]

For instance housework is an extremely practical thing, therefore what evidence is there that women are better than men when men are supposed to be the more practical sex?

I didn't call men the more practical sex, but it isn't that men are unable to do it, it's just that they tend to do it much less.

Also,
Should Men Do Housework? | The Modern Man

nurturing aspect of theirs would make them better at managing people

Do you have evidence for that because it sounds like bs?

It means that she isn't reliant on me for support which makes my life easier

That does not reflect well on you.

Plus there will be less problems should the marriage not work out.

Which could be useful since you're not exactly optimistic about it.

I also like a woman who has an interesting passion as there is nothing more irritating and unattractive than a mindless and aimless woman who has no drive.

Is that what a housewife is? How many do you know?

 

[Kooky]

For what reason would a woman not have the same right as a man to speak in a religious assembly?

Honestly, if you ask me straight away, I'd say it would have to be...

Other than sheer sexism of course.

Okay, I got nothing then.

 

[Meow Mix]

No, one of them always leads.

The surest sign that your worldview doesn’t line up with reality is when you say something as demonstrably wrong as this.

Women are more emotional, have less of certain practical skills, are weaker, more sensitive, less authoritative, more nurturing to their children, they have an essential role in nurturing their children which should not be given away to someone else, they are better at house work and should not be out like men. For instance.

Basically, yes, all have them, but the minor exceptions don't matter. Even in the cases that they exist it's usually the fault of their upbringing.

Well, at least you just wear your misogyny on your sleeve; it’s more honest than being insidious about it I suppose.

Not that it needs to be said, but a few of the old canards you’re conjuring here are related to upbringing. There is nothing about being a woman that involves being more emotional, having fewer practical skills, being less authoritative, etc. unless her culture beats it out of her; which you seem set on perpetuating.

I should pity you for probably never knowing what it’s like to have a partner, but considering your fetish for infantilizing women, I suppose that you like it that way.

 

[Meow Mix]

Wow at the toxic cesspit that is that “Modern Man” link.

Yikes

 

[Meow Mix]

So then, what is your view on symbolic archetypes derived more directly from the symbolic or natural world? People variously use the phrase 'Mother earth.' I think it's an ancient phrase or thought, and though it likely came up in the lingo of western pop culture only in the 60's, it seems ancient, it seems like it was dormant. It is not a Christian phrase. It is in the culture now, but we don't really have a mainline pop analysis for what it means ; it is there, but the culture does not take it that seriously. We don't really know what would happen if it did, in our modern context. Same goes, with this idea of ascribing gender to the sun and moon. Anyone can see that neither object can end up overpowering the other. Every human who lived, and could see, watched and observed that this was true. Why can't a clean, rational, and spiritual anthropomorphic lesson be drawn out of that? Is the harmony of sun and moon that hard to emulate

Humans have always projected their cultural feelings about gender onto objects based on whatever their cultural attitudes towards said genders are.

I don’t know a whole lot about shamanism or other belief systems involving a “mother earth” or Gaia figure, so I’m not sure how to comment on it. Humans project a lot of symbolism that they, themselves, are creating.

 

[Link]

Just see the life of Fatima (a), and Zainab (a) in Shiite Islam. They were not silent nor not in public, but great inspirational examples and lead us back to truth.

 

[Link]

Wow at the toxic cesspit that is that “Modern Man” link.

Yikes

What I do, why you calling me Link a toxic cesspit. I'm joking...

 

[natasha levchenko]

In fact, Paul often referred to the wholesome teaching of women.In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul advised not only women but also individuals who had the gift of tongues and prophecy to “keep silent” when another believer was speaking.* (1 Corinthians 14:26-30, 33) “What is to be done, then, brothers? When you come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, and another has an interpretation.+ Let all things take place for building up.+27 And if someone speaks in a tongue, let it be limited to two or three at the most, and in turns, and someone must interpret.+ 28 But if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the congregation and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets+ speak, and let the others discern the meaning. 30 But if another one receives a revelation while sitting there, let the first speaker keep silent.”
Likely some Christian women were so enthusiastic about their newfound faith that they interrupted the speaker to ask questions, as was the custom in that part of the world. In order to avoid such disorder, Paul encouraged them to “question their own husbands at home.”

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Like violence, pinning sexism on religion is often (but not always) mistaking the cause for the rationalisation. That's my take. Over and out.

Well, there are cases where it is religiously based, like how girls and women in India are treated awfully for their menstrual cycles and this is justified by a certain interpretation of a Hindu myth.

 

[Deeje]

Then get open your eyes. Being at the head of the house is explicitly a position of power. People don't "submit" to peers that's antinomic. Plus, the separate sphere ideology was demonstrated by history to monumentally grant more power, freedom and wealth to men than women. This level of denialism would be like thinking apartheid was allowed black and white people to live in peace and equality in South Africa.

You are speaking about the abuse of headship, which is clearly demonstrated in some cultures and religions. Not at all what God put in place as I have explained already.

This is God’s arrangement. Since it is God who designates the ‘driver’, the safety and well being of all ‘passengers’ in his vehicle is his responsibility. How is that difficult to understand. It was not to be a position of power at all. He is accountable to God for how he fulfills his responsibility. Jesus was the model.

Maybe it’s your eyes that are glued shut?

 

[Meow Mix]

What I do, why you calling me Link a toxic cesspit. I'm joking...

I would never!

Everybody raise your glass to Link!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Why is Jill working when they have children? About time to learn how to cook? Most religious conservative women don't want their husband to cook for them. It's embarrassing. During the time she raises her children she has plenty of time to learn how to cook. Preferring to go to work and to manage finances and make decisions on the home herself does make her masculine. You see if these characteristics are on a man it makes him a potential husband. Not so much a potential wife.

This kind of rhetoric genuinely makes me that much more grateful for the efforts of all of the women who were patient and kind enough to me to show me how I was wrong when I had similar views. Anyone who believes women are less capable than men and doesn't really know many women to dispel that myth is missing out a lot.

 

[sojourner]

This is a good topic and I am glad you raised it....



This all goes back to the concept of headship. If you go back to Eden, the role of husband and father was “complimented” by the role of wife and mother. Each had clearly defined roles with no need for one to encroach on the other’s role in the family arrangement. It’s like any good company, it has its President or CEO and a Vice President who supports the one whose job it is to run the company smoothly. Each person knows their job description, and is happy to do what they are instructed to do by their boss. Ambition is usually created by pride, so ambitions can lead to conflict if one is not qualified for the other person's job, even though they may be capable.

So if someone within that company tries to usurp the role of someone superior in rank, (or with better qualification) we experience ill feeling.....and if it is done with jealousy or malice, the trouble is magnified.

God designed families to be run by one CEO, and with the support of his Vice President, each family was to be run like a successful company, with happy employees who know their job and do it well. No one could complain that they were undervalued or underpaid...the rewards were priceless.


Seeing women usurp the role of men in Christendom is not surprising. The Apostle Paul also said....
1 Corinthians 11:3...
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.“

So even Jesus has a head over him.

With that arrangement in mind, women did not have a teaching role in the congregation, but they were teachers of others outside of it and had a large part in the preaching activity. This follows that when congregations met for Bible study, song and prayer, which dominated their gatherings, women were to know their place. Those who want to go outside of what is written in the scriptures assume that God’s rules only apply to ancient times, and now that women have gained equality, they should be able to compete with men in all fields including positions in the congregation of God’s worshippers. That is a false judgment. God’s rules never go out of fashion, they apply universally so that peace and order is maintained. It was so from the beginning.

It doesn’t mean that women must remain silent altogether, but they are not assigned teaching roles in the congregations. This is not a position of power, but one of responsibility. God holds men accountable for what they teach and how they handle themselves in the congregation and in their personal lives. Elders were those with spiritual qualifications, but not from doing a theological course at some seminary or Bible college.....their qualifications were spiritual and actively demonstrated. (1 Timothy 3:1-12)


No human is free to rewrite God’s rules, but to humbly accept the assignment given with no jealousy or animosity....it just creates divisions and contentions.


Jehovah’s Witnesses stick to what the Bible teaches and humility prevents any woman from reaching out for something that does not belong to her....look where it got Eve....

We understand that God put these things in place for a reason, and we respect his arrangement.

Sexist claptrap.