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Women's Dharma

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
The women can work out of the home. I didnt say no, nor do the scriptures. SHe can do her work regularly. Don't forget its according to times actions and place. The Swaminarayan Sampraday allows all these exceptions. Those who follow the dharm not not touch those who do either. The outside world who do not follow these dharmas are categorised as rajasic or tamsic anyway. So the women go out and work and do their regular tasks.But when the come accross another bhakt they stay away. This is not hard.

“Soul has no sex, it is neither male nor female. It is only in the body that sex exists, and the man who desires to reach the spirit cannot at the same time hold sex distinctions.” - Swami Vivekananda

It is time for us to out grow superstition and treat our fellow humans with respect. If someone wants to follow the rules as a discipline that's fine. To teach the concept that women are impure at certain times of the month and then expect females should follow it, this is the type of thing has been used to hold women down for a long time.
 

santdasji

Member
“Soul has no sex, it is neither male nor female. It is only in the body that sex exists, and the man who desires to reach the spirit cannot at the same time hold sex distinctions.” - Swami Vivekananda

It is time for us to out grow superstition and treat our fellow humans with respect. If someone wants to follow the rules as a discipline that's fine. To teach the concept that women are impure at certain times of the month and then expect females should follow it, this is the type of thing has been used to hold women down for a long time.


It is because of Dharma which bhakti is kept strong. If you were to just leave it at the concept of that the soul is not male nor female and dharma does not affect it is foolish.

Dharma is not superstition. If you were to say this then all the practices carried out by the followers of the sanatan dharm should be abolished and we would have nothing more to do.

Also you didnt answer my last question of why wouldnt you greet someone who was covered in feaces. Its the same thing. Its about being pious and pavitra.
 

santdasji

Member
Draupadi, Sita and the likes all carried out this dharma. They were great avtaars and Bhagwan lived with them. So are you telling me they were all wrong?
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Dharma is not superstition.

I do not believe Dharma is a superstition. The Vedas and reason trump all other scriptures. Any scripture that contradicts the Vedas is wrong and therefor adharmic. I believe that the views that you express on women are bad for Females and Hinduism.Your no touch rules are not in the Vedas.

Lets look at Hindu women in the ancient times:

-Arundhati was an Acarya a teacher in Her own right.
-Vagambhrni a great Sage and perfected soul.
-The great mind of Gargi
-The love of Savitri.
I can go on and on.

Now women can’t even do puja in a temple. They must stay home because they are dirty once a month. Women have become slaves to there husband This is the same type of thinking that says untouchables are dirty.

There is a group of Swamis called the Ramakrishna order. They gave women there own leader. And their own Math's. The women govern them selves it is called the Sarada Math. The Ramakrishna order don't follow any of this no touch rules that you call Dharma. In over 100 years they have had no scandals, not one. Out of the 10s of 1000s of Swamis of this order none went back on their vows of renunciation. Yet you say that they don't follow Dharma because they let women come to temples on there period.

If a women wants to follow your no touch rules for discipline. That's great! This rule needs not be applied to every one.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Also you didnt answer my last question of why wouldnt you greet someone who was covered in feaces. Its the same thing. Its about being pious and pavitra.

I did answer it.

Think about what you are saying. If I was in a bad accident and I needed a colostomy bag I could never do puja again. God would find me so abhorrent that I could not go to a temple for the rest of my life ? I say this God is a Ashura. How could he hate his devotees like that.

I take two showers a day ( very short not to waist water ). I would not do puja, cook or eat food when I am dirty in any way. This is a spiritual discipline, that is all. It is to remind me that I need to be clean inside and out. The rules are to remind us of the truth they are not the truth it self.

So I would not.

The idea that you compare the Womens time of the month to being covered in crap hugging people. Shows that this idea has went off track. The importent things in life are Love, Kindness and living in Harmony with the Cosmos. Not a clean butt.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Draupadi, Sita and the likes all carried out this dharma. They were great avtaars and Bhagwan lived with them. So are you telling me they were all wrong?

This argument is not correct for the following reasons:

-Draupadi washed her hair in the blood of a dead prince after her husband killed him.
-Had 5 husbands.
-Wanted her Guys to marry more then one wife.

Today we go to jail for this type of thing.

-Sita throw herself in to fire at the end of her life.

-Everyone has their own Dharma due to their level of realization, when and were in history they live and their personality type.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
The Vedas (the most important Hindu scripture) has declared in very clear terms that both men and women are two aspects of the same divinity. Humans are one family. This is a central part of Hinduism. Any rule that stops anyone (i.e. Man, woman, caste or income level ) from being given an equal opportunity to follow the Hindu goals of life (Kama, artha, dharma and moksha), should be thrown on the ash heap of History.

This is the Dharma I believe in.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Yagnavalkya Smruti as uttam for following the dharmas for the Kaliyug.

Yajnavalkya also says that :

"183(2) Slavery is in the descending order of the Vamas and not in the ascending order"
This is explained by Vijnaneswara in his Commentary on Yajnavalkya Smriti in the following terms:-

"Of the Varna such as the Brahmin and the rest, a state of slavery shall exist in the descending order (Anulomeyna). Thus, of a Brahmin, a Kshatriya, and the rest may become a slave; of a Kshatriya, the Vaishya and the Shudra; and of a Vaishya, a Shudra; this state of slavery shall operate in the descending order."



So this so called "Smruti" says its ok to own slaves do you believe this also ?
Now do you see why I say the Yagnavalkya Smruti or any code of laws are not scripture.

Dharmashastras are important within the Hindu tradition as a source of history and knowledge of ancient Indian’s body of jurisprudence. The shastra should not to be followed today as a scripture.
 
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santdasji

Member
Then Shriji Maharaj said, "Now let us stop here in singing of devotional songs and start with spiritual discourse." The Paramhamsas11 then said, "May it please your lordship." Shriji Maharaj then initiating the dialogue and asked, "A devotee observes all codes of Dharma3 as prescribed by the scriptures and offers devotion to God. However, when he is confronted by such adverse factors, he is likely to suffer from such flaw that if he sticks strictly to the observances of Dharm,3 Bhakti4 would wane and if he desires to retain Bhakti,4 he has to leave the observance or Dharma.3 Which, therefore, should he prefer – Dharm3 or Bhakti4 ?" Brahmanand5 Swami replied, "If God is propitiated by Bhakti,4 he should prefer Bhakti4 and if God feels propitiated by the observance of Dharma,3 he should observe Dharma."3
Shriji Maharaj said, "Yes, one should prefer to propitiate God either by Bhakti4 or by Dharma3 whichever pleases him in his manifested form here.
 

santdasji

Member
Then Shriji Maharaj asked, "Now stop Kirtans1 to begin with spiritual dialogue." Hearing this, all the Paramhamsas2 sat attentively with the folded hands. Then Shriji Maharaj said, "In this world there are people who do not discriminate between the water of holy river Ganga and ordinary water, the stone of Shaligham4 – the form of Vishnu5 – and other ordinary stones, the Tulsi6 grove and other groves or trees, the Brahmins and the Shudras, the holy food which is graced by God and ordinary eatables. So them the significance of fasting on the Ekadashi7 day is the same as hunger on other days. They also do not discriminate between a Sadhu8 and a non – Sadhu.8 I, therefore, ask you, the younger Sadhus, whether such rules of Vidhi9 and Nishedh10 sanctioned by the great seers and prescribed by our scriptunes have any bearing on truth or they are merely fictions ? The younger Sadhus8 may, reply this question."
Whereupon the younger Sadhus8 said, "The rules of Vidhi9 and Nishedh10 have a perfect bearing on the ultimate truth or else for whom are the regions of heaven and hell prescribed ?"
Shriji Maharaj pleased with their understading and said, "Even though the sadhus are young, they seem to possess mature understanding. The great seers who have sanctioned such rules and which are prescribed by the scriptures have done so on the bases of their findings of truth. The truth of the rules can not apparently be perceived but can be realized. Just as a rich man draws a bank-draft, apparently the draft seems to be a piece of paper but on being exchanged yields money. Similarly, the rules of Vidhi9 and Nishedh10 sanctioned and prescribed by the great seers, if observed with due reverence, ultimately ensures redemption. But, one who does not trust the shroff who has drawn the draft, lacks sense. In the same way, one who doubts the truthful words of such greate seers like Narad,11 the Sanaks,11 Vyas11 and Valmiki12 is a heretic and a sinner.
Such a heretic draws no distinction between the sacred idols of God and other stones. He does not differentiate between a married woman and an unmarried woman. He does not even recognise the sacred relations of mother or sister, but rates them equally with the woman whom he has married, since he feels that all forms are the same in the women. To him Rama13 and Krishna13 are mere human beings and the greatness so imposed upon them is by credulous people. For such people, the rules of Vidhi9 and Naishedy10 are merely fictions. Such heretics are to be discarded with all disdain."
Continuing the dialogue, Shriji Maharaj said, "The chitta is like pure honey or like a thick solution of sugar, sugar cubes or jaggery. Any thing like ant or bee if comes into contact of that liquid, sticks into it spontenously. If any person touches to it, it sticks to his fingertips. The Chitta14 and the nature of chitta14 is like this. It immediately imprints things either heard or seen. Even trifles like garbage and nightsoil, which has nothing to please, even in such things too Chitta14 gets attracted. Not only that on recollection, it thinks on too. Such is the nature of Chitta. Chitta is, therefore, like a mirror which reflects the figures of dogs, donkeys and also of saint who come in front of it. Chitta, because of its crystalline purity imprints within all objects seen or heard, irrespective of whether they are attractive or repulsive.
Therefore, a Mumukshu should not get frustrated by such nature of the Chitta and should not feel that such projections of the forms of woman etc from within, shows lack in Vairagya. Such projections appear from within even to such people who have developed Vairagya,15 since it is the nature of Chitta to reflect whatever objects are seen or heard, irrespective of whether they are good or bad. He should therefore take courage and feel consciously that he is separate from Chitta,16 he is Atma.17 By such thought consciousness, he should always remain blissful but at no time he should feel unhappy or frustrated.
 

santdasji

Member
Then Muktanand Swami asked Shriji Maharaj, "Arjuna1 had spiritual vigour on the strength of his knowledge of Shri Krishna's2 divine form, whereas Yudhishthir3 had the predominance of the moral strength of religious scriptures. If the spiritual vigour inspired by the knowledge of the divine self of Shri Krishna2<SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext"> becomes predominant in a devotee, he is apt to relax the observance of the rules of moral conduct, where one who has strictly adopted the moral code as a way of life becomes weak in divine form and it's realization. How should one try to develop both in his life ?"
 

santdasji

Member
Shriji Maharaj then said, "A devotee should never indulge in such activities which are not liked either by God or by his brahmanished saint. Further, he should immediately discard those who are putting obstacles in his path of devotion even if they are his relatives. He should also discard his own nature if it is not in consonance with the wish of God, just as he discards his enemy. He should avoid mixing with people indulging in blasphemy in the manner of Bharat,1 who immediately discarded his mother Kaikeyi.2 The attribute of a real devotee fundamentally relates to looking within and finding out his own drawbacks. A bigot on the contrary always finds fault with others and feels himself endowed with all virtues. To vindicate the cause of Bhakti,3 a true devotee should lessen the intensity of Dharm,4 Gyan5 and Vairagya6, if they are likely to lessen the force of devotion with in him and try to become predominant. But if they supplement the course of Bhakti,3 they should be carefull developed. One who regards himself as full of all virtues and finds fault with others and eventhough he is considered to be an outstanding devotee, he is sure to fall from the path of devotion. Radhikaji,7 the dearest devotee of Lord Shri Krishna,8 experienced a set back in her devotion when she found fault with Shri Krishna.8 Her true love for Shri Krishna8 was tarnished by Tamas.9 Her heart, full of love for Shri Krishna, but tarnished by Tamas,9 picked up quarrels with Shri Krishna8 and Shridama. Consequently Shridama cursed her and she fell from the high pedestal of Lord Shri Krishna's consort to an ordinary wife of a shepherd. Her devotional life became greatly tarnished. And Shridama10 who felt Radha's7 fault and disregarded his own drawbacks, rebuked Radha7 for quarrelling with Shri Krishna. He was then cursed by Radhaji7<SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext"> and he became a demon in his next birth. Even though usually one does not revert to the earth from the divine abode, still it was the wish of God to exhibit the law of retribution by which even greatest devotee is not spared if he disregards the other devotees. Therefore the devotees of God should always hold in high esteem all other devotees, and should every moment examine themselves to weed out their own vices. Such devotees even if they possess a little intellect always make progress. The others who are considered to be worldly wise recede from the path of devotion if they indulge in finding fault with others. Usually when a servent or a disciple is rebuked for his fault by the king or the Guru. But one who reacts unwisely and imputes motives to the king or the Guru does not earn benediction. Similarly God also prefers a devotee who corrects himself."
 

santdasji

Member
<SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext">On the twelfth day of the first fortnight of the month of Shravan in Samvat 1881, Swami Shri Sahajanandji Maharaj was seated facing east on a cot in the Verandah near the temple of Shri Vasudev Narayan in the Durbar of Shri Dada Khachar at Gadhada. He was dressed in all white garments. Munis and devotees from the different places were seated before him in the assembly.
 

santdasji

Member


<SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext">Then Shriji Maharaj said, &#8216;The four Vedas, Purans, Itihasas and scriptures specifically teach that the contact of God or his saint only will redeem the Jeevas. Such enlightened one saint excels in spiritual greatness and divinity like Brahma etc Gods or rather more than them when the Jiva (soul) procures such contact with God or his saint, he has nothing to attain further. That is the highest achievement. And such chance to serve God's saint, it self is a life time achievement- available only to the people with great Punyas. therefore, the love towards such saint should be like that with the son, wife or parents. Such love fulfill the vaccum of life. The son, if is not virtuous and is sinful, never becomes unlovable to such soul. But a saint who is completely virtuous and spiritually wise, if per chance utters some harsh words under the circumstances, becomes the subject of hate for that Jiva. If such difference is visible in the Jiva, then he can not be called a devotee with deep love for the saints of God, and such devotee souls can not be redeemed.
 

santdasji

Member
Menstruation (Periods)In human females, the onset of the first menstrual cycle is called menarche and represents the start of puberty and becoming a woman. This takes place around the age of 12 years, although the age varies between the individuals. The menstrual cycle which lasts about 28 days continues until menopause between the ages of 45 and 50. The start of the cycle commences with the discharge of blood - known as menstruation, and this event is easily identified. This flow of blood, which lasts about 5 days, is due to the lining of the uterus wall being shed along with a little blood.
In the Shikshapatri, a woman during menstruation is referred to as a Rajsvala and should observe what is known as the Maasic Vrata. In the Shikshapatri shlok 173, it is written that a woman should never conceal the period of menstruation, and in shlok 174, Bhagwan Swaminarayan goes on to say that during this time, women shall avoid the touch of persons, clothing and other items for 3 days, and on the fourth day should purify themselves with a complete bath. They shall avoid all religious activity during this time and give domestic responsibilities to others within the household.
There are a number of reasons for this. One of the reasons is that a woman is considered impure during this time as she is losing blood, but along with that, heat and harmful toxins are also being excreted from the body. As a result, her body is weaker, and so she is required to rest. That is why she has been allocated these 3 days to rest and allow the rest of her family to look after her household duties. To understand this concept better, as to why we do not touch certain things during a period, it is comparable to sutak - a period of impurity consequent upon birth or death, where close relatives are not to touch or be involved in religious activity for a number of days. Another such example is when there is an eclipse and every activity is left aside, and when the eclipse is over, everyone should be purified by taking a bath.
However, on a more positive note, at this time of the month, the woman is a Devta, as Brahma (the creator) who resides inside her reveals himself, and therefore she is on a higher spiritual level than us all and so we must avoid touching her.
It is difficult to observe the rules laid down above in the modern day and age, although not impossible. This is Bhagwan Swaminarayan's aagna, and when He wrote it, He had the situation in mind. A woman feels responsible to feed her family everyday, but effort can be made to allow someone else to do the cooking, like a neighbour or a relative near by. In this situation, the rest of the family also have to be co - operative as it is important to follow this to keep the home as pure as possible.
The first day of Rajsvala depends on when exactly Rajodarshan (time of menstrual cycle) takes place. If Rajodarshan occurs at night, then splitting the night-time into three equal parts, if Rajodarshan occurred in the first two parts of night-time then the previous day should be considered as the first day. If it occurred in the last third then the next day is considered the first day of Rajsvala Vrata. Other Smrutis explain that if Rajodarshan occurs before the middle of night-time then the previous day should be considered as the first day. Nirnyasindhu however explains that one should act in such cases in accordance with what is accepted in the village, town, country etc.
Then is explained the prohibition of touch for a Rajsvala. It is even forbidden for a Rajsvala Stree to touch another Rajsvala: If a Rajsvala accidentally touches another Rajsvala, then they are purified by bathing. If they touch intentionally, then they should perform Upavaas (full day fast) and partake in Panchagavya (five elements from a cow - including urine) for purification. If a Rajsvala Brahmin woman touches a Rajsvala Kshatriya woman, then the Brahmin woman should observe the complete Ardhakrutch Vrata and the Kshatriya woman should observe half of the same Vrata. Thus all women of all castes should observe the Rajsvala Dharma.
It is hard to follow this when at work, school, etc. and most people don't follow it because it isn't what they believe in, so if Rajsvala women are touched, then there is less paap. Ideally, upon return to home if food is cooked with the intention of serving to God, then a bath should be taken so that one is in the utmost pure condition. This will purify the person from all the influences imposed during the course of the day.
The process may seem like a punishment, but the whole idea of following these rules is with the woman's best interests at heart, and for her to rest during this period as her body is weak. It's only when a woman is out of the kitchen that her value is realised how hard it is for those 2 days!
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Then Muktanand Swami asked Shriji Maharaj, "Arjuna1 had spiritual vigour on the strength of his knowledge of Shri Krishna's2 divine form, whereas Yudhishthir3 had the predominance of the moral strength of religious scriptures. If the spiritual vigour inspired by the knowledge of the divine self of Shri Krishna2<SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext"> becomes predominant in a devotee, he is apt to relax the observance of the rules of moral conduct, where one who has strictly adopted the moral code as a way of life becomes weak in divine form and it's realization. How should one try to develop both in his life ?"


It seems that you are stuck in how you should respond to my comments on both the Dharmashastras and on the rules that have discriminated against women for hundreds of years. So you copy and paste lots of info that much of it has very little to do with our conversation.

I like to believe that the ideal of Dharma is much higher then what women touch during a few days a month. Religion is a thing of the heart. Rules of moral conduct need to be built around the Highest Truth not superstition. I know a Hindu who get up at 4 am to chant scripture while feeding the fire till 6 am then meditates to 8 am eats breakfast goes to work 4 days a week. One day is set aside to volunteer at a hospice to serve people who are dying. He comes home and do Atari and mediate in the evening for an hour. He lives a simple life even though he make lots of money. The money is used to help support charity work and family members. His home is vegetarian and only eat two simple meals a day. They never follow your no touch rules. Do you believe that there bhakti is weak ? He glows with love! This is what Dharma looks like.

I know a couple who practice Hinduism. They get up early, and take a bath in a very cold stream. They chant and do puja and Japa every morning. They raise there child with love, they Teach Hatha Yoga to old people to make there lives better. They live a simple life. The wife goes into the forest and picks plants to help heal her friends. There home shrine is always open, other people always meet at there home to sing and dance for God. Holy Men seem to stay there for weeks a a time. I don't see this Bhakti as weak. Do you believe that they are not Yogis because they dont follow your no touch rules?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-Hamlet by William Shakespeare.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
If a Rajsvala Brahmin woman touches a Rajsvala Kshatriya woman, then the Brahmin woman should observe the complete Ardhakrutch Vrata and the Kshatriya woman should observe half of the same Vrata. Thus all women of all castes should observe the Rajsvala Dharma.

Do you believe that an untouchable can chant the Vedas.
 

santdasji

Member
The women who is on her period cannot touch the Veda for Three days. The rest of the caste in this Kaliyug can. A brahmin is a Brahmin by Karma not by birth.

Also the womens dharm is practiced wilfully by the women its not forced. Many women i know in the satsang talk of themselves feeling tamsic and not having the right state of mind while on their period. The following of dharm is part and parcel of their Bhakti. To deter them would not be right.

Not just that but its a dharm which has been followed by many women in the sanatan dharm. Even the Hare Krishna devotee women who do not feed God.

Its about the Tamas Guna.

Tamas guna is dullness or inertia.
Each of these bind action in some respect. Sattva guna binds us to happiness, rajas guna binds us to actions, and tamas guna binds us to lack of vigilance. If one of these dominates us, certain results follow. A life dominated by tamas guna is one in which the individual is mislead, and negligent, and passive.


The idea of action without attachment addresses these notions of the gunas. The ideal is to act in such a way so as not to be bound. Krishna illustrates this ideal in Bhagavad Gita 14: 22 - 27.

SO THATS WHY THERE ARE SUCH DHARMAS.​
 
I like to believe that the ideal of Dharma is much higher then what women touch during a few days a month. Religion is a thing of the heart. Rules of moral conduct need to be built around the Highest Truth not superstition. I know a Hindu who get up at 4 am to chant scripture while feeding the fire till 6 am then meditates to 8 am eats breakfast goes to work 4 days a week. One day is set aside to volunteer at a hospice to serve people who are dying. He comes home and do Atari and mediate in the evening for an hour. He lives a simple life even though he make lots of money. The money is used to help support charity work and family members. His home is vegetarian and only eat two simple meals a day. They never follow your no touch rules. Do you believe that there bhakti is weak ? He glows with love! This is what Dharma looks like.
Here, here:clap

That, to me is Hinduism.
 

santdasji

Member
I like to believe that the ideal of Dharma is much higher then what women touch during a few days a month. Religion is a thing of the heart. Rules of moral conduct need to be built around the Highest Truth not superstition. I know a Hindu who get up at 4 am to chant scripture while feeding the fire till 6 am then meditates to 8 am eats breakfast goes to work 4 days a week. One day is set aside to volunteer at a hospice to serve people who are dying. He comes home and do Atari and mediate in the evening for an hour. He lives a simple life even though he make lots of money. The money is used to help support charity work and family members. His home is vegetarian and only eat two simple meals a day. They never follow your no touch rules. Do you believe that there bhakti is weak ? He glows with love! This is what Dharma looks like.

I dont question this Bhakts dharm at all.HE is Nirgun from what you say. He keeps God with him all the time to be this pure.As the scriptures clearly hold dharm just as important as bhakti. Also bhakt like you describe are the minority today.. Do you know why? As people do not want to follow dharm of the scriptures. Do you see the majority like the bhakt you describe? I dont think so. To reach this stage somewhat dharm has to be performed. To become Nirgun someone has to overcome the three attributes of Maya. Only through dharm and bhakti can one achieve this status. As only through these two can one remain in constant rapport with Parmatma and realise the atma (the self).
 
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