Women's head covering in Abrahamic belief systems.

[outlawState]

I don't say all of any belief is true. We are going to have to wait until the Creator, or Jesus comes to explain it to us.

He already has. And he has made clear what is in store for those who don't believe the explanations already given.

Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

The big fat lie is that any of us must believe in any belief system to "be saved". What if someone has had enough and they don't want to come back for the fates to get at them again?

Then you make Jesus to be a liar.

john 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Think about who Abram encountered in Salem? What about the Angel that Muhammad PBUH encountered? Who was it that the Zoroastrians depict in their art work? What is happening with the Yazidis and why hasn't their divine one made their world better? They were before the Jews and the Zoroastrians, "experts" say.

I am most confused about why I believe in a Creator any more. It is in my spirit. I'm doubtful that that Creator protected me from a single thing that he did not want to happen in my life.

Where did I say that I believe in everything in any belief system? Perhaps I'm not a believer any more? Perhaps I'm just a very amateur spiritual Archaeologist? One of the members here tried to intellectually bully me.

This is the Christianity DIR. Sounds to me like you should be posting in another part of this forum as you are not a Christian. Moreover Christianity is an intellectual pursuit. It is about knowledge. And it is about arguments. And logic. And love. But the point it makes is that without knowledge there cannot be any love.

Phl 1:9
And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight,

2Co 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

I wonder who here has stood face to face with an authority figure who said they were going to kill them? In those circumstances, it makes no sense to believe in anything at all does it?

If you think you're the only one who has suffered persecution, you are deluded. Others don't boast of it, including myself who has suffered loads of it. Moreover, no one has the right to apostasy in the kingdom of God. God spent 1500 years teaching the Israelites that truth. The penalty is death - death of body and death of soul. It's only a matter of time.

 

[A.C. Simon]

I don't say all of any belief is true. We are going to have to wait until the Creator, or Jesus comes to explain it to us. The big fat lie is that any of us must believe in any belief system to "be saved". What if someone has had enough and they don't want to come back for the fates to get at them again?

Think about who Abram encountered in Salem? What about the Angel that Muhammad PBUH encountered? Who was it that the Zoroastrians depict in their art work? What is happening with the Yazidis and why hasn't their divine one made their world better? They were before the Jews and the Zoroastrians, "experts" say.

I am most confused about why I believe in a Creator any more. It is in my spirit. I'm doubtful that that Creator protected me from a single thing that he did not want to happen in my life.

Where did I say that I believe in everything in any belief system? Perhaps I'm not a believer any more? Perhaps I'm just a very amateur spiritual Archaeologist? One of the members here tried to intellectually bully me. I wonder who here has stood face to face with an authority figure who said they were going to kill them? In those circumstances, it makes no sense to believe in anything at all does it?

You don’t have to believe in a belief system to be saved, but you do have to believe in a person, the God-man; Jesus Christ of Nazereth. I specify of Nazereth because there are many false Jesus; like the Jesus of Islam.

It’s interesting to see the superficial similarities with Christianity, and yazidis and zoroastrians. It seems like a twisted and perverted version of the true story. God’s always been trying to knock on the hearts of men, but the devil twists and perverts the story; and men grab a hold of it. The being I believe muhammed encountered was not the angel Gabriel; but a demon, maybe the devil himself. It’s evident when you look at the story itself in the Hadith. The “angel” grabbed a hold of him, pressed on him 3 times to the point he could barely bare it, tried forcing him to recite some words, then after the visitation it says muhammed was in fear for his life. After that muhammed was so concerned that he was demon possessed that he tried to commit suicide three times, but that demon stopped him each time. This is a huge contrast to the angelic visitations in the bible. After all if you were the devil and knew the only way of salvation was through Christ, wouldn’t creating Islam be a pretty good idea?

The God of the bible is the only One that has told the end from the beginning as seen in bible prophecy; no other book has anywhere near accurate prophecies as does the bible. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ can be proven with solid historical facts. There is solid archaeological evidence for the biblical narrative. And the God of the bible still speaks to His children today through dreams, visions, angels, an audible and still small voice and etc.
There are thousands of Muslims in the Middle East converting to Christianity because they saw Jesus in dreams and visions. What more proof do you need?

 

[Ellen Brown]

You don’t have to believe in a belief system to be saved, but you do have to believe in a person, the God-man; Jesus Christ of Nazereth. I specify of Nazereth because there are many false Jesus; like the Jesus of Islam.

It’s interesting to see the superficial similarities with Christianity, and yazidis and zoroastrians. It seems like a twisted and perverted version of the true story. God’s always been trying to knock on the hearts of men, but the devil twists and perverts the story; and men grab a hold of it. The being I believe muhammed encountered was not the angel Gabriel; but a demon, maybe the devil himself. It’s evident when you look at the story itself in the Hadith. The “angel” grabbed a hold of him, pressed on him 3 times to the point he could barely bare it, tried forcing him to recite some words, then after the visitation it says muhammed was in fear for his life. After that muhammed was so concerned that he was demon possessed that he tried to commit suicide three times, but that demon stopped him each time. This is a huge contrast to the angelic visitations in the bible. After all if you were the devil and knew the only way of salvation was through Christ, wouldn’t creating Islam be a pretty good idea?

The God of the bible is the only One that has told the end from the beginning as seen in bible prophecy; no other book has anywhere near accurate prophecies as does the bible. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ can be proven with solid historical facts. There is solid archaeological evidence for the biblical narrative. And the God of the bible still speaks to His children today through dreams, visions, angels, an audible and still small voice and etc.
There are thousands of Muslims in the Middle East converting to Christianity because they saw Jesus in dreams and visions. What more proof do you need?

"There are thousands of Muslims in the Middle East converting to Christianity because they saw Jesus in dreams and visions." Not sure I see that as a credible statement.

As to the requirement that one believe that the Messiah has come, and is the only one to save humanity? We have in the NT, "I and Father are One", and "No man cometh to the Father but through the Son". Good luck with that. I don't have issue with the Creator and his Son. It is his followers ... I remain open but way believers and organizations treat some of us...

There are so many belief systems insisting that they are the only ones. I'll stand back and wait for the dust to settle.

 

[A.C. Simon]

"There are thousands of Muslims in the Middle East converting to Christianity because they saw Jesus in dreams and visions." Not sure I see that as a credible statement.

As to the requirement that one believe that the Messiah has come, and is the only one to save humanity? We have in the NT, "I and Father are One", and "No man cometh to the Father but through the Son". Good luck with that. I don't have issue with the Creator and his Son. It is his followers ... I remain open but way believers and organizations treat some of us...

There are so many belief systems insisting that they are the only ones. I'll stand back and wait for the dust to settle.

It’s a good thing then that Jesus asks us to follow Him and not those who say they are christians.
God’s truth is not hid in darkness, but is in the light, open to all; the only thing is people got to come into the light to embrace truth and that’s the condemnation, that people loved darkness more than the light. Remember indecision is a decision, and your either with Him or against Him.

 

[Ellen Brown]

It’s a good thing then that Jesus asks us to follow Him and not those who say they are christians.
God’s truth is not hid in darkness, but is in the light, open to all; the only thing is people got to come into the light to embrace truth and that’s the condemnation, that people loved darkness more than the light. Remember indecision is a decision, and your either with Him or against Him.

Um, you are going to force me to do some research aren't you?

What about Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Were I going to have "my perfect church", we would pray at the beginning of the service. Then we would read scripture and talk about the meaning of it and if we were going to obey it. Then perhaps we would all pray silently. Then perhaps some community news? Primitive Baptists sing hymns A Capella.

I won't openly criticize how nearly 100 different denominations do it. I have attended a "International Foursquare church" because they are less than 5 minutes walk. I think that when my creator wants a change in direction from me, I'll know it.

 

[A.C. Simon]

Um, you are going to force me to do some research aren't you?

What about Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Were I going to have "my perfect church", we would pray at the beginning of the service. Then we would read scripture and talk about the meaning of it and if we were going to obey it. Then perhaps we would all pray silently. Then perhaps some community news? Primitive Baptists sing hymns A Capella.

I won't openly criticize how nearly 100 different denominations do it. I have attended a "International Foursquare church" because they are less than 5 minutes walk. I think that when my creator wants a change in direction from me, I'll know it.

I had Matthew 12:30 in mind: “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.“
Why don’t you be that perfect follower of Christ instead of criticizing others; even though the critisicim may be valid.
The way I see it is connect yourself to a body where the head is Jesus Christ.
And if you can’t find anybthere’s always starting a house church which seemed to be how the early church did it.
Oh and thousands of muslims are coming to Christ through dreams and visions and visitations, look it up.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I had Matthew 12:30 in mind: “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.“
Why don’t you be that perfect follower of Christ instead of criticizing others; even though the critisicim may be valid.
The way I see it is connect yourself to a body where the head is Jesus Christ.
And if you can’t find anybthere’s always starting a house church which seemed to be how the early church did it.
Oh and thousands of muslims are coming to Christ through dreams and visions and visitations, look it up.

I'm not ready to accept that Muslims are coming to Christ yet. When I see that headline on mainline news media ...

 

[exchemist]

I'm not ready to accept that Muslims are coming to Christ yet. When I see that headline on mainline news media ...

Ellen, I'm very late to this discussion, but I happened by chance to come across the following link today, which has a summary of the history of veiling of women in the semitic religions: http://uhaweb.hartford.edu/greenberg-center/Veiled Women Catalog.pdf

It may be interesting to put the various practices into context in history, geography and culture.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ellen, I'm very late to this discussion, but I happened by chance to come across the following link today, which has a summary of the history of veiling of women in the semitic religions: http://uhaweb.hartford.edu/greenberg-center/Veiled Women Catalog.pdf

It may be interesting to put the various practices into context in history, geography and culture.

I haven't had time to fully read this link yet. I came to the conclusion that all three Abrahamic sects practice head covering to one extent or the next, though I think Saudi Sunnis carried it much too far. They effectively blame women for male lust, and that is the same thing that the Apple ranters have done for such a long time. I'll try to get back to this. Thank you.

 

[exchemist]

I haven't had time to fully read this link yet. I came to the conclusion that all three Abrahamic sects practice head covering to one extent or the next, though I think Saudi Sunnis carried it much too far. They effectively blame women for male lust, and that is the same thing that the Apple ranters have done for such a long time. I'll try to get back to this. Thank you.

That's why I dislike the practice so much. It seems to me that not only does it do that but it treats women as sexual property, to be "unwrapped" only in the presence of their husbands and inhibits women's ability to be independent by removing facial expression from the repertoire of their social communication.

But I thought the article was quite good in bringing some perspective to the practice. Clearly it was quite common to some extent in all three religions, at various times in history.

 

[Ellen Brown]

That's why I dislike the practice so much. It seems to me that not only does it do that but it treats women as sexual property, to be "unwrapped" only in the presence of their husbands and inhibits women's ability to be independent by removing facial expression from the repertoire of their social communication.

But I thought the article was quite good in bringing some perspective to the practice. Clearly it was quite common to some extent in all three religions, at various times in history.

I have been trying to determine if Zoroastrians practiced it, and if the Yazidis did also. There are several places in the OT where the practice is assumed. I may not be that religious any longer but perhaps just a Theological Anthropologist? There are still some Zoroastrians and Yazidis around, but I have not had much success talking to them.

 

[A.C. Simon]

I'm not ready to accept that Muslims are coming to Christ yet. When I see that headline on mainline news media ...

The mainline news media is the last place I would expect to get truth from...

 

[exchemist]

I have been trying to determine if Zoroastrians practiced it, and if the Yazidis did also. There are several places in the OT where the practice is assumed. I may not be that religious any longer but perhaps just a Theological Anthropologist? There are still some Zoroastrians and Yazidis around, but I have not had much success talking to them.

The only Zoroastrian I have met was when I worked in the Dubai office of Shell. My wife knew another, also in Shell, in London. Both were of Indian extraction - and charming people. Both were men so no insight into head coverings I'm afraid.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The only Zoroastrian I have met was when I worked in the Dubai office of Shell. My wife knew another, also in Shell, in London. Both were of Indian extraction - and charming people. Both were men so no insight into head coverings I'm afraid.

I talked to one professor, and saw a book in the library. Anthropologists can some times be helpful.