Women's Sports

[Callisto]

I am afraid that is all you have to offer, right? Only short sentences, lacking of any substance whatsoever.
I shouldn't have expected more. This is a lesson I should learn.

You have been afforded a great deal of patience and courtesy this entire time. Possibly, far more than was warranted.

When you continue to make recurring, imperceptive comments expect others to weary of it,

 

[We Never Know]

I think that's THE sad part about it. If rather than a transwoman, there was a cisgender woman that somehow managed to have loads of strength and stamina because of her unique genetics, to the point that she dominated the entire scene for years, no one would be saying a thing about her having an unfair advantage. Rather than that, everyone would be applauding her for something she was born with.

"for something she was born with"

She was a cisgender born with XX chromosomes

 

[Koldo]

"for something she was born with"

She was a cisgender born with XX chromosomes

And therefore?

 

[We Never Know]

And therefore?

And therefore she is a cisgender born with XX chromosomes. She is a female biologically and mentally.

 

[Koldo]

And therefore she is a cisgender born with XX chromosomes. She is a female biologically and mentally.

Sure. And therefore....?
I am trying to understand why you said that.

 

[We Never Know]

Sure. And therefore....?
I am trying to understand why you said that.

Because she is not a transfemale trying to be in female sports.

 

[Koldo]

Because she is not a transfemale trying to be in female sports.

Are you ok?

 

[Kfox]

Men are not all physically the same either. Nor are women. Having two leagues benefits a specific group of women (which varies according to the sport), that suddenly can play competitively because of the existence of a women's league. It doesn't make the game fair for every single person. It just allows some women to play competitively.
Am I saying that Women's league shouldn't exist? Nope. Let's just not pretend we are solving all fairness problems with it.

If all women are allowed the same opportunity, how is this not fair?

 

[Koldo]

If all women are allowed the same opportunity, how is this not fair?

I think many people defending the participation of transwomen in women's categories/leagues would say exactly that.
I am curious as to how you go from ''all X are allowed the same opportunity'' to ''therefore, it is fair'' though. What is the rationale?

 

[SomeRandom]

I think that's THE sad part about it. If rather than a transwoman, there was a cisgender woman that somehow managed to have loads of strength and stamina because of her unique genetics, to the point that she dominated the entire scene for years, no one would be saying a thing about her having an unfair advantage. Rather than that, everyone would be applauding her for something she was born with.

I do recall reading about, I think it was Ian Thorpe, having a genetically enhanced lung capacity.
Basically he had a random mutation that meant that his lungs naturally stretched longer than average.
So he had a natural advantage in swimming and arguably this genetic feature allowed him to beat and hold down world records in the first place.
The report praised him for it.

So I do kind of agree with you, if I’m honest.

People praise athletes for having biological advantages. Even if they don’t realise it.

As for trans folk competing. Surely if said athlete took puberty blockers and then used gender affirming hormone treatment, the so called biological advantage would be largely mitigated?
At least for trans women athletes.

I don’t know the exact stats, so I hesitate to state that with certainty. I’m just saying.

 

[We Never Know]

Are you ok?

Last time I checked I was.
How about.you?

 

[Augustus]

If it is fairness that we seek, then let's work towards reducing unfairness across the board and not be hypocrites that only defend fairness sometimes. Let's create (or at least speak in favor of) categories or rules that reduce the impact of physical/genetical advantage between competitors. If having a physical advantage that allows one to dominate a competition is unfair, then it is always unfair. Not only when it is men vs. women.

This has already been explained to you many times, I doubt another attempt would prove any more fruitful.

 

[Augustus]

do recall reading about, I think it was Ian Thorpe, having a genetically enhanced lung capacity.
Basically he had a random mutation that meant that his lungs naturally stretched longer than average.
So he had a natural advantage in swimming and arguably this genetic feature allowed him to beat and hold down world records in the first place.
The report praised him for it.

Descriptions like these tend to explain why person X has an advantage over an average person and is thus more likely to become elite.

When you compare elite athletes to other elite athletes, these metrics tend to lose any predictive value.

 

[Augustus]

I am curious as to how you go from ''all X are allowed the same opportunity'' to ''therefore, it is fair'' though. What is the rationale?

Can you work out why this is unfair?

“This 100m race with 1 million dollar prize is open to girls aged under 10, unless your name is Eva. If your name is Eva then you can race even if you are an adult”.

Bonus question: Can you can predict the name of the winner?

 

[Koldo]

Descriptions like these tend to explain why person X has an advantage over an average person and is thus more likely to become elite.

When you compare elite athletes to other elite athletes, these metrics tend to lose any predictive value.

Not quite. Otherwise, there is a lot of stupid and rich teams out there paying a fortune for athletes, even though there are many much cheaper (and elite) alternatives in the market. What you probably mean is that it is impossible to predict with some kind of absolute certainty, which is, of course, absolutely unnecessary to state that a given match/game was unfair.

 

[Koldo]

Can you work out why this is unfair?

“This 100m race with 1 million dollar prize is open to girls aged under 10, unless your name is Eva. If your name is Eva then you can race even if you are an adult”.

Bonus question: Can you can predict the name of the winner?

I will answer your question if you answer mine first.
I have previously asked: I am curious as to how you go from ''all X are allowed the same opportunity'' to ''therefore, it is fair'' though. What is the rationale?

 

[Augustus]

Not quite. Otherwise, there is a lot of stupid and rich teams out there paying a fortune for athletes, even though there are many much cheaper (and elite) alternatives in the market. What you probably mean is that it is impossible to predict with some kind of absolute certainty, which is, of course, absolutely unnecessary to state that a given match/game was unfair.

If you liked sports you’d know there are a lot of stupid teams paying over the odds yes.

You might also understand that wasn’t the point I was making and that I’ve explained the point to you at least 5 times.

I will answer your question if you answer mine first.
I have previously asked: I am curious as to how you go from ''all X are allowed the same opportunity'' to ''therefore, it is fair'' though. What is the rationale?

It is fair to judge the best person in that category and these categories are based on reasonable criteria.

 

[Kfox]

I think many people defending the participation of transwomen in women's categories/leagues would say exactly that.

Okay, let me rephrase. If all biological females are allowed the same opportunity, how is it not fair?

I am curious as to how you go from ''all X are allowed the same opportunity'' to ''therefore, it is fair'' though. What is the rationale?

If all females are allowed the same opportunity, the way I see it, it's fair. How do you see it as unfair?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

@F1fan , I also want to mention the fact that a truly "conservative" position would be to let local school districts, individual college conferences, individual professional sports leagues, and organizations like the Olympic Committee make decisions on such matters and not politicians. The likes of DeSantis is much more compatible with Marxist methodology than actual political conservatism.

Agreed!

 

[Koldo]

Okay, let me rephrase. If all biological females are allowed the same opportunity, how is it not fair?

To which I can reply: If all women are allowed the same opportunity, how is this not fair?

If all females are allowed the same opportunity, the way I see it, it's fair. How do you see it as unfair?

Because the physical/genetical differences within the group of all females is wide enough to make it so their performance on any given (physical) sport will not depend mostly on training or proper diet, but rather on their inherent physical traits. And having an inherent physical trait(s) that essentially makes you the winner or that excludes people without this trait from having an actual chance at winning is unfair. The exact same reason that you would use to say that it is unfair for transwomen to compete against cisgender women.

You can check the following image to see how each sport benefits a certain body type:

Some sports allow for a wide range of body types though, others not at all.