Wonderful

[Sand Dancer]

So somebody, anybody -- before the United States finally abandons its democracy (which is what will happen with a re-election of Donald Trump) -- explain to me, please....

What is the American fascination with this licentious, lying, egotistical, vicious and vengeful, childish buffoon? You know, the one that has already -- in full light of day -- tried everything he could think of to demolish your democracy in a single election?

Is that who y'all (Republicans, anyway) really aspire to be? Because I think, maybe, you're already there!

Because he's a bully and will put white Americans ahead of everyone else and they like that.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Because he's a bully and will put white Americans ahead of everyone else and they like that.

I think there's some truth in that. There are a lot of places in the US where there really was just one big majority demographic, and a few unimportant and small minorities. Now, more and more, minorities are everywhere, even in government (OMG!), which is making that original demographic feel like they're losing control of everything.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I think there's some truth in that. There are a lot of places in the US where there really was just one big majority demographic, and a few unimportant and small minorities. Now, more and more, minorities are everywhere, even in government (OMG!), which is making that original demographic feel like they're losing control of everything.

I guess they think that they are superior and that if the majority becomes more brown it will ruin the country. Not very nice.

 

[Jose Fly]

I think there's some truth in that. There are a lot of places in the US where there really was just one big majority demographic, and a few unimportant and small minorities. Now, more and more, minorities are everywhere, even in government (OMG!), which is making that original demographic feel like they're losing control of everything.

Over the last few months I've been spending time in right-wing world, lurking in forums, reading news sites, listening to podcasts, etc.

The main thing I've learned is that many conservatives are extremely angry right now. And I mean seriously, massively angry.

From their perspective, the US is turning its back on them, their beliefs, and their values. They see people of color in positions of power, LGBTQs living openly and freely with society accepting it, their kids and their kids' friends being "woke" and rejecting Christianity, and a host of other things that to them, isn't how things are supposed to be. And when they express their frustrations about all that, they get labelled as ignorant racists/bigots, are publicly shamed, and basically shut down.

But those things by themselves aren't the main drivers of their anger IMO. From what I can tell, most of the anger stems from how they don't seem to be able to do much about any of it. That's why they're increasingly resorting to violence and threats of violence to try and get their way (e.g., threatening school board members). If they can't get their way democratically, they'll try other means.

As I mentioned earlier, they seem very, very desperate. They feel cornered. They feel like society looks down on them. They feel like they're losing power and influence and society is moving on without them. And the pandemic, the public health measures, and the inordinate amount of deaths among their own tribe are only adding fuel to the fire.

The main question I have in my mind now, after spending time in their world, is just how far this is going to go.

 

[Brinne]

I like the litmus for Trump being a good president is that he “did things” — with no real consideration for the social impact his presidency had on political discourse in the United States.

Still bizarre after everything his ‘movement’ continues with somewhat open support.

 

[Valjean]

Over the last few months I've been spending time in right-wing world, lurking in forums, reading news sites, listening to podcasts, etc.

The main thing I've learned is that many conservatives are extremely angry right now. And I mean seriously, massively angry.

From their perspective, the US is turning its back on them, their beliefs, and their values. They see people of color in positions of power, LGBTQs living openly and freely with society accepting it, their kids and their kids' friends being "woke" and rejecting Christianity, and a host of other things that to them, isn't how things are supposed to be. And when they express their frustrations about all that, they get labelled as ignorant racists/bigots, are publicly shamed, and basically shut down.

But those things by themselves aren't the main drivers of their anger IMO. From what I can tell, most of the anger stems from how they don't seem to be able to do much about any of it. That's why they're increasingly resorting to violence and threats of violence to try and get their way (e.g., threatening school board members). If they can't get their way democratically, they'll try other means.

As I mentioned to @Evangelicalhumanist earlier, they seem very, very desperate. They feel cornered. They feel like society looks down on them. They feel like they're losing power and influence and society is moving on without them. And the pandemic, the public health measures, and the inordinate amount of deaths among their own tribe are only adding fuel to the fire.

The main question I have in my mind now, after spending time in their world, is just how far this is going to go.

Yes, there is a strong element of Replacement Panic involved ( How the "great replacement" theory went from Charlottesville to the GOP mainstream ) But I think the nativist reactionaries have a real and significant grievance. They really have been abandoned, by both parties. Their needs and interests really have been ignored. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echo.../www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746 ).
Their security, social mobility, and general prosperity has stagnated or declined.

The problem is, opportunistic politicians have obscured the real causes of this stagnation, and attributed it to "radical" leftists and socialists. So when a politician (real estate mogul?) comes along and sympathizes with them; tells them their grievances are genuine, and are being ignored, he gains an immediate following. He goes on to assure them that he knows who's to blame, he knows where the threats lie, and who their real enemies are -- and he will fix all this.

This has all happened before, with disastrous results, and I see it all being repeated here -- but we have forgotten history.....

 

[Jose Fly]

Just this morning I went to The Christian Post (a right-wing Christian news site), and the articles on the front page are good examples of the anger and frustration I was talking about. Today, there are multiple articles ginning up outrage among their readers about anti-racism efforts, transgenders, same-sex couples adopting kids, vaccine mandates, and the Biden administration.

And the emotion behind all of them is consistent.....anger....lots and lots of anger.

 

[Jose Fly]

Yes, there is a strong element of Replacement Panic involved ( How the "great replacement" theory went from Charlottesville to the GOP mainstream ) But I think the nativist reactionaries have a real and significant grievance. They really have been abandoned, by both parties. Their needs and interests really have been ignored. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echo.../www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746 ).
Their security, social mobility, and general prosperity has stagnated or declined.

The problem is, opportunistic politicians have obscured the real causes of this stagnation, and attributed it to "radical" leftists and socialists. So when a politician (real estate mogul?) comes along and sympathizes with them; tells them their grievances are genuine, and are being ignored, he gains an immediate following. He goes on to assure them that he knows who's to blame, he knows where the threats lie, and who their real enemies are -- and he will fix all this.

This has all happened before, with disastrous results, and I see it all being repeated here -- but we have forgotten history.....

Very true, and I agree with your assessment. But I also think the other factors (race, LGBTQ rights, COVID) play at least as significant a role in their anger.

A bit ago I read an article that described how many of the Jan. 6 insurrectionists were actually doing quite well financially. They chartered private planes and busses to get to DC. THIS ARTICLE isn't the specific one I remember reading, but it touches on my point...

Third, the demographic profile of the suspected Capitol rioters is different from that of past right-wing extremists. The average age of the arrestees we studied is 40. Two-thirds are 35 or older, and 40 percent are business owners or hold white-collar jobs. Unlike the stereotypical extremist, many of the alleged participants in the Capitol riot have a lot to lose. They work as CEOs, shop owners, doctors, lawyers, IT specialists, and accountants. Strikingly, court documents indicate that only 9 percent are unemployed.​

So yeah....there's a lot more going on here than just economic concerns.

 

[Valjean]

I like the litmus for Trump being a good president is that he “did things” — with no real consideration for the social impact his presidency had on political discourse in the United States.

Still bizarre after everything his ‘movement’ continues with somewhat open support.

The things he did do were hazardous -- but they were politically expedient, for himself.
As for his constituency, what did he do that actually benefited them?

 

[Valjean]

Very true, and I agree with your assessment. But I also think the other factors (race, LGBTQ rights, COVID) play at least as significant a role in their anger.

A bit ago I read an article that described how many of the Jan. 6 insurrectionists were actually doing quite well financially. They chartered private planes and busses to get to DC. THIS ARTICLE isn't the specific one I remember reading, but it touches on my point...

Third, the demographic profile of the suspected Capitol rioters is different from that of past right-wing extremists. The average age of the arrestees we studied is 40. Two-thirds are 35 or older, and 40 percent are business owners or hold white-collar jobs. Unlike the stereotypical extremist, many of the alleged participants in the Capitol riot have a lot to lose. They work as CEOs, shop owners, doctors, lawyers, IT specialists, and accountants. Strikingly, court documents indicate that only 9 percent are unemployed.​

So yeah....there's a lot more going on here than just economic concerns.

I read similar articles when this data came out, probable including the same on you read. Yes, their motivations are multifarious. Not all are economically forsaken.
It was those who had the time and resources who made it to the Capitol Hill party.

 

[Jose Fly]

I read similar articles when this data came out, probable including the same on you read. Yes, their motivations are multifarious. Not all are economically forsaken.
It was those who had the time and resources who made it to the Capitol Hill party.

Another thing I didn't mention was the big lie of the "stolen election" and how that's driving so much of their anger. As surveys have shown, the big lie is believed by a solid majority of Republican voters!

When I talk with my Democrat friends, one of the main things I try and convey to them when they start talking about conservatives is that they simply do not live in the same reality as the rest of us. And you have to actually go to their websites and news sources to appreciate just how extensive their alternative reality is.

 

[Valjean]

A pox on both their houses!

 

[Jose Fly]

Now this is weird and creepy. At a rally last night for the GOP nominee for VA Governor, the crowd said the Pledge of Allegiance to a flag that was carried into the Capitol during the Jan 6 insurrection.

Ron Filipkowski on Twitter: "At the rally last night for GOP VA Gov candidate Glenn Youngkin, they said the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ to a flag that was carried during the insurrection on Jan 6, as if it was sacred or something. https://t.co/NGEaFFAvdF" / Twitter

 

[Valjean]

Now this is weird and creepy. At a rally last night for the GOP nominee for VA Governor, the crowd said the Pledge of Allegiance to a flag that was carried into the Capitol during the Jan 6 insurrection.

Ron Filipkowski on Twitter: "At the rally last night for GOP VA Gov candidate Glenn Youngkin, they said the ‘Pledge of Allegiance’ to a flag that was carried during the insurrection on Jan 6, as if it was sacred or something. https://t.co/NGEaFFAvdF" / Twitter

Loyalty oaths and overt demonstrations of Nationalism are hallmarks of Fascism.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But this just in! I'm in full agreement with Donald Trump!

He published yesterday: "If we don't solve the Presidential Election Fraud of 2020 which we have thoroughly and conclusively documented, Republicans will not be voting in 2022 or 2024."

Well, if his base is still listening to him, he's just solved any election problems at all!

 

[Jose Fly]

But this just in! I'm in full agreement with Donald Trump!

He published yesterday: "If we don't solve the Presidential Election Fraud of 2020 which we have thoroughly and conclusively documented, Republicans will not be voting in 2022 or 2024."

Well, if his base is still listening to him, he's just solved any election problems at all!

I guess that's the risk when you hitch your wagon to an egomaniac. Oh sure, at first you and the egotist may have common interests and goals, but it's inevitable that at some point he'll make it all about himself, and if that means working against you and your interests, well that's your problem, not his.

Kinda like Frankenstein's monster......"He's alive! I've done it!"

"Oh crap, what I have done?"

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Much better. At least Trump actually did things that he set out to do regardless of weither it was popular or not.

Doing damaging things is not better than lip-service for positive things.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I think there's some truth in that. There are a lot of places in the US where there really was just one big majority demographic, and a few unimportant and small minorities. Now, more and more, minorities are everywhere, even in government (OMG!), which is making that original demographic feel like they're losing control of everything.

I had this conversation with a Trump supporting coworker, and that was their main issue: being afraid of demographic changes.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Doing damaging things is not better than lip-service for positive things.

Like the economy?

I'll stay with Trump's 'damage' while waiting for something better to come along.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I had this conversation with a Trump supporting coworker, and that was their main issue: being afraid of demographic changes.

Actually the fear stems from changes that will turn this country into a western version of China.