Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[katiemygirl]

Oh, no problem! Thanks for thinking it through as long as you did. You're a true virtual friend. May God richly bless.

So what should we discuss next?

 

[Spockrates]

So what should we discuss next?

Hmmm. Let me finish walkin' my dogs and let you know.

 

[katiemygirl]

Hmmm. Let me finish walkin' my dogs and let you know.

I'll think about it too.

 

[Spockrates]

I'll think about it too.

Did you come up with a topic? I have a few favorites that I like to use on discussion forums like this. We have just discussed two of them:

• Are we saved through faith alone? (Ephesians 2)
• Is the bread and wine really Jesus' flesh and blood? (John 6)

Here are some others:

• Should we forgive everyone for everything? (Luke 17)
• Is love really the greatest virtue, or is there something greater? (1 Corinthians 13)
• If God wants the truth to be simple, why does he make the Bible so ambiguous? (Matthew 26:26)
• How can God be merciful if Hell exists?
• Is the Socratic Method a bad way to seek the truth?

But I'm OK with talking about just about anything.

 

[katiemygirl]

Did you come up with a topic? I have a few favorites that I like to use on discussion forums like this. We have just discussed two of them:

• Are we saved through faith alone? (Ephesians 2)
• Is the bread and wine really Jesus' flesh and blood? (John 6)

Here are some others:

• Should we forgive everyone for everything? (Luke 17)
• Is love really the greatest virtue, or is there something greater? (1 Corinthians 13)
• If God wants the truth to be simple, why does he make the Bible so ambiguous? (Matthew 26:26)
• How can God be merciful if Hell exists?
• Is the Socratic Method a bad way to seek the truth?

But I'm OK with talking about just about anything.

All of those topics are good ones. I came up with some as well.

Does the New Testament church exist today? How can we find the church, whichJesus built, in our world today? How is the church of today different than the church depicted in the NT?

Are the Scriptures our sole authority?

I don't know how the SCOTUS decision will come down on same sex marriage. If they redefine marriage, will ministers be forced to perform these marriages against what their faith dictates? Should churches give up their non profit tax status in order to preserve their beliefs? Will preachers be able to preach against what they believe God's word says about homosexuality? I'm sure this topic will show up on the forum if it hasn't already.

 

[Spockrates]

All of those topics are good ones. I came up with some as well.

Does the New Testament church exist today? How can we find the church, whichJesus built, in our world today? How is the church of today different than the church depicted in the NT?

Are the Scriptures our sole authority?

I don't know how the SCOTUS decision will come down on same sex marriage. If they redefine marriage, will ministers be forced to perform these marriages against what their faith dictates? Should churches give up their non profit tax status in order to preserve their beliefs? Will preachers be able to preach against what they believe God's word says about homosexuality? I'm sure this topic will show up on the forum if it hasn't already.

It's all good! Please pick one and start a new discussion thread.

 

[Spockrates]

But wait. If you think about it, every one of these topics all have one topic in common: Does God reveal the truth to us fully? And the second topic is like it: How does God reveal the truth to us?

Finding the answer to those questions is a prerequisite to answering the others, I think.

 

[katiemygirl]

But wait. If you think about it, every one of these topics all have one topic in common: Does God reveal the truth to us fully? And the second topic is like it: How does God reveal the truth to us?

Finding the answer to those questions is a prerequisite to answering the others, I think.

God reveals to us the truth He wants us to know. Obviously, there are things we are not meant to know. I believe His revelations come to us through one source alone, and that is His word. That wasn't always the case. But the faith has been once delivered to the saints. It's complete. What we need to know is there.

I'll think some more on this. Meanwhile, if you start a thread, I will participate.

 

[Spockrates]

God reveals to us the truth He wants us to know. Obviously, there are things we are not meant to know. I believe His revelations come to us through one source alone, and that is His word. That wasn't always the case. But the faith has been once delivered to the saints. It's complete. What we need to know is there.

I'll think some more on this. Meanwhile, if you start a thread, I will participate.

Yes, but as we have discussed, here, the words can be interpreted different and contradictory ways. So all we need are not in the words on the page. If they were, no one would disagree about what they mean!

 

[Spockrates]

But I might start a new discussion. Maybe I'll take a breather, first.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, but as we have discussed, here, the words can be interpreted different and contradictory ways. So all we need are not in the words on the page. If they were, no one would disagree about what they mean!

I believe with honest study, looking at all related Scriptures, there can be agreement amongst us. You are a good example of this. Your own seeking and honest study made you realize that faith alone is a false conclusion. The problem, as I see it some people are never willing to say "I don't know for sure," or "I could be wrong." I've seen you do that, and it is admirable. You are willing to let the Holy Spirit teach you through study and prayer. God is not the author of confusion. Remember, God sends strong delusions to those who really don't want the truth. Instead they want to have their ears tickled. God allows these people to believe the lie.

Question: Do you believe that our God is triune? I'm guessing you do. To me, the evidence is overwhelming. Yet, look at those groups who will twist every verse that says Jesus is God. There is nothing to misunderstand. But groups like the JW's choose to follow the Watchtower Organization, accepting everything they're told as truth. Watchtower has been wrong repeatedly over the years, but the faithful JW accepts the excuse....the light gets brighter.

 

[Spockrates]

I believe with honest study, looking at all related Scriptures, there can be agreement amongst us.

I believe, "honest study looking at all related scriptures," describes you. It evidently describes Atpollard and Disciple, too. Yet I think you agree they don't agree with you--not on everything.

You are a good example of this. Your own seeking and honest study made you realize that faith alone is a false conclusion.

The problem, as I see it some people are never willing to say "I don't know for sure," or "I could be wrong." I've seen you do that, and it is admirable. You are willing to let the Holy Spirit teach you through study and prayer. God is not the author of confusion. Remember, God sends strong delusions to those who really don't want the truth. Instead they want to have their ears tickled. God allows these people to believe the lie.

Yes, I'm a philosopher. So I'm not into partisan religion.

Question: Do you believe that our God is triune? I'm guessing you do. To me, the evidence is overwhelming. Yet, look at those groups who will twist every verse that says Jesus is God. There is nothing to misunderstand. But groups like the JW's choose to follow the Watchtower Organization, accepting everything they're told as truth. Watchtower has been wrong repeatedly over the years, but the faithful JW accepts the excuse....the light gets brighter.

I had a neighbor who was in a JW. Nice lady. I spent a lot of time debating with a friend of hers who would bring young JWs to my house to learn how to deal with difficult people like myself who tried to prove them wrong. I was a different person, then--more partisan than philosopher.

I've also spent a lot of time talking with Mormons. (All you have to do is call the number to get a free Book of Mormon and a pair of elders show up at your door!) With them I also cared more about winning arguments than finding the truth. I'd do things differently, today. Who knows? They might teach me something new.

But from what I've learned, JWs have their own translation of the Bible, with different renderings of texts often used to prove the Trinity. Mormons have told me the Bible is accurate, insofar as it is correctly transmitted. The problem, they say, is a good deal of it was not correctly transmitted.

Some Christians who don't believe Jesus is God question the authority of scripture itself, saying much of it is fictional of figurative and should not be believed to be an accurate account if any historical events. So however one looks at it, I think those who don't believe God is one what in three whos are those who question the accuracy of the Bible translations you and I use.

Don't you think so too?

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe that the story of the thief on the cross beside Jesus does a good job of illustrating what is required from us ...

Luke 23:42-43

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”​

God expects us to lean (place all of the weight of our hope for getting into Heaven) on Jesus Christ and his work on our behalf.

• Thus it is GRACE ... unearned and not the wages of our own good works.
• This Grace is acquired by FAITH ... our decision to build our hope upon the promise and work of Jesus life, death and resurrection.
• This Faith is the GIFT OF GOD ... In my personal case, it was not my deep spiritual efforts that empowered me to find faith in Jesus. If I am honest, I had no real interest in finding God or Jesus. I just didn't care. It was God who pursued and wooed me over to a decision to consider that I might be willing to think about trusting him. God honored each baby step that he coaxed out of me, until one day I looked back and found myself walking ... following him.

From this personal experience of reality, I willingly respond with service to God, freely given.
Not in any effort to balance a scale of justice ... there are not sufficient good deeds to outweigh my debt of sin.
Not in any effort to buy favor with a Holy God ... I believe the scripture when it describes my best efforts as "filthy rags" and, frankly, attempting to buy love feels very crass.
Rather, my service is a gift from a grateful heart to his loving God.

Thus the reason to be concerned where you see no works is not because the Grace may not have been paid for (it cannot be paid for), but because the lack of gratitude suggests that the Grace was never received.

Luke 23:42-43. This passage speaks only of the thief. No one in the Bible ever made a connection with the thief and those who came after. The thief was the final example of of Luke 5:24, where Jesus had the authority to override the required animal sacrifices and forgive sins directly on earth. He had already done so with the paralytic, sinful woman, and Zacchaeus, and the thief was the last of these exceptions to the law, and that's all. Any precedence set by how the thief was saved for future people is imagined, not scriptural.

The Bible never says faith alone. Grace is not "acquired", even by faith. God is gracious to those, with regard to salvation, whom in faith follow His instructions. We don't and can't get it for ourselves. God is gracious because that's who He is.

 

[atpollard]

Luke 23:42-43. This passage speaks only of the thief. No one in the Bible ever made a connection with the thief and those who came after. The thief was the final example of of Luke 5:24, where Jesus had the authority to override the required animal sacrifices and forgive sins directly on earth. He had already done so with the paralytic, sinful woman, and Zacchaeus, and the thief was the last of these exceptions to the law, and that's all. Any precedence set by how the thief was saved for future people is imagined, not scriptural.

This is not worth arguing about ... I was using the thief as a visual example of my belief founded on other evidence ... the belief does not rest on the illustration.

The Bible never says faith alone. Grace is not "acquired", even by faith. God is gracious to those, with regard to salvation, whom in faith follow His instructions. We don't and can't get it for ourselves. God is gracious because that's who He is.

I would not mind some clarification of this part.
In your opinion:

• What is FAITH?
• Is Justification possible without Faith?
• If the answer to the first two questions does not already answer it, then What is GRACE?

Some words get used so much that it can be helpful to make sure that we are starting from the same basic definitions.


For my part, let me clarify "acquired":

• I am NOT saying "acquired" = "gained through my own actions"
• I am saying "acquired" = "at one time, I had not received it, but now I have received it"

 

[katiemygirl]

"Spockrates, post: 4268955, member: 56793"]I believe, "honest study looking at all related scriptures," describes you. It evidently describes Atpollard and Disciple, too. Yet I think you agree they don't agree with you--not on everything.

I believe atpollard and I are 95% in agreement. I would have no problem worshiping alongside him. We have far more common beliefs than not. I don't know enough about the other poster. He got too angry for me to carry on a conversation with. When it comes to the tenets of mainstream christianity, atpollard and I are on the same page for the most part.

I've also come to realize that we are all at a different place in our learning. What I believe about a particular issue now, I may feel differently about next week. I also find that there are many ways to look at something, and it's good to try and find middle ground where we can.

But from what I've learned, JWs have their own translation of the Bible, with different renderings of texts often used to prove the Trinity. Mormons have told me the Bible is accurate, insofar as it is correctly transmitted. The problem, they say, is a good deal of it was not correctly transmitted.

JW's and Mormons are far removed from main stream christianity. I have a real problem with any religion which has human leaders. Any religion which has to come up with their own translation or says the Bible is only inspired in so far as it is translated is imho a false religion. I know there are good JW and Mormon people. It's their doctrine I take issue with.

Some Christians who don't believe Jesus is God question the authority of scripture itself, saying much of it is fictional of figurative and should not be believed to be an accurate account if any historical events. So however one looks at it, I think those who don't believe God is one what in three whos are those who question the accuracy of the Bible translations you and I use.

Don't you think so too?

I think you may be right.

 

[e.r.m.]

This is not worth arguing about ... I was using the thief as a visual example of my belief founded on other evidence ... the belief does not rest on the illustration

Ok.

I would not mind some clarification of this part.
In your opinion:

• What is FAITH?

• Faith is trusting God/Jesus in who they are (e.g. - divine), what they did (e.g. - the cross), and what they instructed (e.g. - on how one gets saved.)[/quote]

• Is Justification possible without Faith? - No.

• [*]If the answer to the first two questions does not already answer it, then What is GRACE?

  God's favorable disposition toward us that we don't deserve. Grace is an attribute of God, His gracious nature.

Some words get used so much that it can be helpful to make sure that we are starting from the same basic definitions.

Agreed.

For my part, let me clarify "acquired":

• I am NOT saying "acquired" = "gained through my own actions"
• I am saying "acquired" = "at one time, I had not received it, but now I have received it"

I understand. I agree with the definition.

 

[atpollard]

Ok.

• Faith is trusting God/Jesus in who they are (e.g. - divine), what they did (e.g. - the cross), and what they instructed (e.g. - on how one gets saved.

• God's favorable disposition toward us that we don't deserve. Grace is an attribute of God, His gracious nature.

Agreed.

I understand. I agree with the definition.

We are on the same page.
Thank you for keeping me honest.

[like Katiemygirl, you and I may differ on some of the fine points of "what they instructed", but we agree on the big picture.]

 

[e.r.m.]

We are on the same page.
Thank you for keeping me honest.

[like Katiemygirl, you and I may differ on some of the fine points of "what they instructed", but we agree on the big picture.]

Although I would like for that to be the case, it remains to be seen.

 

[atpollard]

Although I would like for that to be the case, it remains to be seen.

Well, you could post something theologically wrong, then I could correct you and then we would know for sure.

I am a 5 point Calvinist, so what I believe is fairly well documented (and widely hated).

A summary of the big picture as I see it:

1. Triune God (Father-Son-Holy Spirit)
2. EVERYTHING is all about Jesus.
3. God does all of the heavy lifting in Salvation, I get to be awestruck and grateful.

Everything else is just details.

 

[katiemygirl]

Well, you could post something theologically wrong, then I could correct you and then we would know for sure.

I am a 5 point Calvinist, so what I believe is fairly well documented (and widely hated).

A summary of the big picture as I see it:

1. Triune God (Father-Son-Holy Spirit)
2. EVERYTHING is all about Jesus.
3. God does all of the heavy lifting in Salvation, I get to be awestruck and grateful.

Everything else is just details.

Let me add another.
...The Bible is our sole authority.