Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Spockrates]

Hi. So I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone. The grace is God's part and faith is our part. But I wonder if faith is the only condition we must meet. One biblical passage we might consider is:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)
​

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think Ephesians is arguing that faithfulness is your part and grace is God's part, so I think the emphasis is on faithfulness while maintaining Paul's emphasis that your works aren't what provide communion.

I think the meaning of the word 'Faith' has changed too much since the Victorian era and should no longer be used here. In those times faith was not so tied to belief, so it would have had more relevancy. Now it seems to be misleading or at least confusing and its closer to the original if you use faithfulness here.

 

[Pegg]

Hi. So I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone. The grace is God's part and faith is our part. But I wonder if faith is the only condition we must meet. One biblical passage we might consider is:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)
​

salvation is most certainly a gift!

But that doesnt mean we dont have to do anything to attain it. We must work along with our faith. If you truly believe in something, you will live by it. We must practice our faith through our daily conduct and activities.

and yes, there are things that we must do. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you,+ and you will be witnesses+ of me in Jerusalem,+ in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a,+ and to the most distant part* of the earth.”

What does it mean to be a witness? Its an important question because its what you must do.

 

[Spockrates]

I think Ephesians is arguing that faithfulness is your part and grace is God's part, so I think the emphasis is on faithfulness while maintaining Paul's emphasis that your works aren't what provide communion.

I think the meaning of the word 'Faith' has changed too much since the Victorian era and should no longer be used here. In those times faith was not so tied to belief, so it would have had more relevancy. Now it seems to be misleading or at least confusing and its closer to the original if you use faithfulness here.

Brickjectivy:

Fascinating! So should the meaning of the biblical text be different today than what the author originally intended?

 

[Spockrates]

salvation is most certainly a gift!

But that doesnt mean we dont have to do anything to attain it. We must work along with our faith. If you truly believe in something, you will live by it. We must practice our faith through our daily conduct and activities.

and yes, there are things that we must do. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you,+ and you will be witnesses+ of me in Jerusalem,+ in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a,+ and to the most distant part* of the earth.”

What does it mean to be a witness? Its an important question because its what you must do.

Pegg:

I suppose a witness testifies to what she sees and hears. Perhaps Jesus' closest followers would qualify, but I don't think I would. Anything I'd say is likely hearsay.

Regarding gaining admittance to heaven, would you say that a condition for receiving such is to "practice our faith through our daily conduct"?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Brickjectivy:

Fascinating! So should the meaning of the biblical text be different today than what the author originally intended?

I think that is a different topic. Languages don't truly translate, so maybe the expectation of 'Translation' is too high. Maybe using English translations as holy texts is not a good idea, either. There are a range of questions you could ask about this kind of misunderstanding.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg:

I suppose a witness testifies to what she sees and hears. Perhaps Jesus' closest followers would qualify, but I don't think I would. Anything I'd say is likely hearsay.

Jesus taught his 12 apostles and gave them authority to teach. But he also instructed them to teach other disciples how to teach. So a christian is obligated to teach what the apostles preached.

Matt 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

When you consider vs 20 'teach them to observe all things i have commanded YOU' then it becomes quite clear that those new disciples would also be required to make disciples just as the Apostles were commanded to do. So a christian is obligated to teach what the apostles preached which is the witness that Christ was raised from the dead and has become the king of kings and the one to whom all people must submit.

Regarding gaining admittance to heaven, would you say that a condition for receiving such is to "practice our faith through our daily conduct"?

Only those chosen by God gain admittance to heaven. Nothing you can do would give you priority....even Jesus apostles were not necessarily given priority even though they were about to follow him into death. There is an account recorded which shows that Jesus himself has no control over who will gain the heavenly reward:

Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee+ approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him.+21 He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”+22 Jesus said in answer: “YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup+ that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup,+ but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

But with regard to ALL christians regardless of their destination, we must live by the teachings of Christ as recorded in the bible...we must practice christianity in our daily life by means of our conduct, the way we treat our neigbours, the type of work we choose to do, the goals we choose to pursue, the atttitudes we choose to adopt etc etc:

James 1:22 However, become doers of the word+ and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,+ this one is like a man looking at his own face* in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is.25 But the one who peers into the perfect law+ that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.
James 2:[URL='http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/dx/r1/lp-e/1001061163/30399']14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works?+That faith cannot save him, can it?[/URL]

James goes on to state what can save a person... it is the 'implanting' of the Word. into the heart and mind so that a persons entire life is transformed into one that is in harmony with God and his Will.

James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak,+ slow to anger,+20 for man’s anger does not bring about God’s righteousness.+21 Therefore, put away all filthiness and every trace of badness,*+ and accept with mildness the implanting of the word that is able to save you.*

 

[Spockrates]

I think that is a different topic. Languages don't truly translate, so maybe the expectation of 'Translation' is too high. Maybe using English translations as holy texts is not a good idea, either. There are a range of questions you could ask about this kind of misunderstanding.

Are you saying it is likely the word faith in Ephesians 2 is incorrectly translated and Paul never used the Greek equivalent of the word at all?

 

[Spockrates]

Jesus taught his 12 apostles and gave them authority to teach. But he also instructed them to teach other disciples how to teach. So a christian is obligated to teach what the apostles preached.

Matt 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.+19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

When you consider vs 20 'teach them to observe all things i have commanded YOU' then it becomes quite clear that those new disciples would also be required to make disciples just as the Apostles were commanded to do. So a christian is obligated to teach what the apostles preached which is the witness that Christ was raised from the dead and has become the king of kings and the one to whom all people must submit.

I suppose, then I might be a witness of his eyewitnesses, yet my testimony would still be hersay and not as reliable. For I might misunderstand the intended meaning of their eyewitness accounts.

Only those chosen by God gain admittance to heaven. Nothing you can do would give you priority....even Jesus apostles were not necessarily given priority even though they were about to follow him into death. There is an account recorded which shows that Jesus himself has no control over who will gain the heavenly reward:

Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee+ approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him.+21 He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”+22 Jesus said in answer: “YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup+ that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “YOU will indeed drink my cup,+ but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."

Notice Christ says the positions of authority are not his to GIVE. Does he also say the positions of authority are not his to KNOW? I'm thinking there is a difference between giving and knowing, and Christ might have known but not wished to tell. How about you?

But with regard to ALL christians regardless of their destination, we must live by the teachings of Christ as recorded in the bible...we must practice christianity in our daily life by means of our conduct, the way we treat our neigbours, the type of work we choose to do, the goals we choose to pursue, the atttitudes we choose to adopt etc etc:

James 1:22 However, become doers of the word+ and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer,+ this one is like a man looking at his own face* in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself, and he goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he is.25 But the one who peers into the perfect law+ that belongs to freedom and continues in it has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; and he will be happy in what he does.
James 2:14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works?+That faith cannot save him, can it?

James goes on to state what can save a person... it is the 'implanting' of the Word. into the heart and mind so that a persons entire life is transformed into one that is in harmony with God and his Will.

James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak,+ slow to anger,+20 for man’s anger does not bring about God’s righteousness.+21 Therefore, put away all filthiness and every trace of badness,*+ and accept with mildness the implanting of the word that is able to save you.*

Yes, but the question still remains: For those God has chosen, is faith the only condition he chooses for them to meet in order to be saved from hell, or does he also choose another? Or are you saying to "put away all filthiness and every trace of badness" is such a condition?

 

[Pegg]

I suppose, then I might be a witness of his eyewitnesses, yet my testimony would still be hersay and not as reliable. For I might misunderstand the intended meaning of their eyewitness accounts.

Sure, thats possible. But thats just all the more reason to really analyse what you believe and what you think you know to be true when it comes to Christianity. I can already see that you have some ideas which are not true and very unbiblical. So its really important to study the bible sincerely and honestly and to do so with the right guidance.

Notice Christ says the positions of authority are not his to GIVE. Does he also say the positions of authority are not his to KNOW? I'm thinking there is a difference between giving and knowing, and Christ might have known but not wished to tell. How about you?

the disciples asked for a position in the heavenly kingdom, Jesus answer was simply that he did not have authority to give away positions in the heavenly kingdom. If you let the scriptures speak for themselves, you will hear the testimony of the Apostles. Of course you can add your own ideas to it, but that is not the testimony of the apostles...what you add is your own and now you do have a testimony based on hersay.

Yes, but the question still remains: For those God has chosen, is faith the only condition he chooses for them to meet in order to be saved from hell, or does he also choose another? Or are you saying to "put away all filthiness and every trace of badness" is such a condition?

every christian must meet the same requirements regardless of whether they are destined to inherit the heavenly kingdom or the earth. The counsel to 'put away all filthiness and every trace of badness' is equally applicable to someone who will live in the earthly paradise. To dwell with God in heaven or on earth, we must be holy...we must live holy lives...we must be clean of every defilement.

1Peter 1:14 As obedient children, stop being molded by* the desires you formerly had in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in all your conduct,+16 for it is written: “You must be holy, because I am holy.”+​

 

[Spockrates]

Sure, thats possible. But thats just all the more reason to really analyse what you believe and what you think you know to be true when it comes to Christianity. I can already see that you have some ideas which are not true and very unbiblical. So its really important to study the bible sincerely and honestly and to do so with the right guidance.

I agree about the need for analysis. But please provide an example of an idea I've proposed, which you know is unbiblical.

the disciples asked for a position in the heavenly kingdom, Jesus answer was simply that he did not have authority to give away positions in the heavenly kingdom. If you let the scriptures speak for themselves, you will hear the testimony of the Apostles. Of course you can add your own ideas to it, but that is not the testimony of the apostles...what you add is your own and now you do have a testimony based on hersay.

I concur. So in analyzing what Jesus said, would you say it is logical to induce that he did not have the authority to give, but illogical to assume that he did not know? That is, wouldn't assuming so be commiting the informal fallacy of making an argument from ignorance? Or does the fact he did not say anything about whether or not he knew sufficiently prove it was unknown to him?

every christian must meet the same requirements regardless of whether they are destined to inherit the heavenly kingdom or the earth. The counsel to 'put away all filthiness and every trace of badness' is equally applicable to someone who will live in the earthly paradise. To dwell with God in heaven or on earth, we must be holy...we must live holy lives...we must be clean of every defilement.

1Peter 1:14 As obedient children, stop being molded by* the desires you formerly had in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in all your conduct,+16 for it is written: “You must be holy, because I am holy.”+​

Again, I agree. But the question asked in the opening post still remains unanswered, I believe. Please don't keep me in suspense! Tell me, my friend: Exactly what are the requirements a chosen one must meet to be saved? If you are not sure, that's OK. Just let me know you are in the same boat of ignorance as myself.

 

[katiemygirl]

Hi. So I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone. The grace is God's part and faith is our part. But I wonder if faith is the only condition we must meet. One biblical passage we might consider is:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)
​

I'm afraid you have heard someone else's opinion about what the Scriptures say. Read the entire NT for yourself.

The Scriptures do not say "saved by grace ALONE, by faith ALONE." EVER! This is a man made teaching. It does not come from God.

There is no doubt! We are saved by grace, but not grace ALONE.

There is no doubt. We are saved through faith, but not faith ALONE!

As a matter of fact, James, in chapter 2, explicitly teaches that faith by itself is dead.

Works do not save, but you cannot be saved without them either. Again, James, chapter 2, makes it clear. Faith without works is dead!

 

[katiemygirl]

But the question asked in the opening post still remains unanswered, I believe. Please don't keep me in suspense! Tell me, my friend: Exactly what are the requirements a chosen one must meet to be saved? If you are not sure, that's OK. Just let me know you are in the same boat of ignorance as myself.

We are saved by grace through faith. This is the verse you cited. It is the absolute truth.

What must we do to be saved? In a nutshell...

1. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (John 3:16).
2. We must repent (Luke 13:3,5).
3. We must confess Jesus before men (Matt. 10:32)
4. We must be immersed (Acts 2:38)
5. We must remain faithful (Rev. 2:10)

To know what God would have us do, we must study His word. The answers are spread across the NT. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find."

I have given you just a few Scriptures which tell what we must do to be saved. There are many more.

 

[katiemygirl]

salvation is most certainly a gift!

But that doesnt mean we dont have to do anything to attain it. We must work along with our faith. If you truly believe in something, you will live by it. We must practice our faith through our daily conduct and activities.

and yes, there are things that we must do. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you,+ and you will be witnesses+ of me in Jerusalem,+ in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a,+ and to the most distant part* of the earth.”

What does it mean to be a witness? Its an important question because its what you must do.

Witnesses for JESUS! That is the job of every Christian. We are to preach and teach the gospel to all. Jesus died so we may live. He was raised from death as we will be if we trust in Jesus and do what He says.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Are you saying it is likely the word faith in Ephesians 2 is incorrectly translated and Paul never used the Greek equivalent of the word at all?

I think Ephesians is arguing that faithfulness is your part and grace is God's part, so I think the emphasis is on faithfulness while maintaining Paul's emphasis that your works aren't what provide communion. The modern word 'Faith' does not convey what Ephesians is talking about.

 

[Spockrates]

I think Ephesians is arguing that faithfulness is your part and grace is God's part, so I think the emphasis is on faithfulness while maintaining Paul's emphasis that your works aren't what provide communion. The modern word 'Faith' does not convey what Ephesians is talking about.

Thanks for replying, but it seems we're having trouble seeing the trees for the forest. I mean, if you and I were hicking the Adirondack Mountains in New York and I drew your attention to a specific tree and asked you, "Is this tree a maple tree?" and you answered, "This is a temperate forest," then you would not have answered my question!

So when I ask, "In verses 8 and 9 of chapter 2, is Paul saying faith is all that is required to be saved from hell?" and you answer, "Ephesians is about faithfulness," you still have not answered my question! For I'm asking about the meaning of specific verses (or a tree) and you are telling me the overall theme of the letter as a whole (or the forest).

Therefore please take a moment to look away from the vast forest, carefully consider the beauty and nature of this particular tree and tell me: Is Paul saying faith is all that is required to be saved?

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not of yourselves, it's the gift of God--not by works, so that no man can boast. For you are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God created in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

 

[Spockrates]

We are saved by grace through faith. This is the verse you cited. It is the absolute truth.

What must we do to be saved? In a nutshell...

1. We must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (John 3:16).
2. We must repent (Luke 13:3,5).
3. We must confess Jesus before men (Matt. 10:32)
4. We must be immersed (Acts 2:38)
5. We must remain faithful (Rev. 2:10)

To know what God would have us do, we must study His word. The answers are spread across the NT. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find."

I have given you just a few Scriptures which tell what we must do to be saved. There are many more.

Thank you, MyGirl. Is this an exhaustive list, or are there perhaps other conditions I must meet to be saved?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thanks for replying, but it seems we're having trouble seeing the trees for the forest. I mean, if you and I were hicking the Adirondack Mountains in New York and I asked you, "Is this tree a maple tree?" and you answered, "This is a temperate forest," then you would not have answered my question!

So when I ask, "In verses 8 and 9 of chapter 2, is Paul saying faith is all that is required to be saved from hell?" and you answer, "Ephesians is about faithfulness," you have not answered my question! For I'm asking about the meaning of specific verses (or a tree) and you are telling me the overall theme of the letter as a whole (or the forest).

Therefore please take a moment to look away from the vast forest, carefully consider the beauty and nature of this particular tree and tell me: Is Paul saying faith is all that is required to be saved?

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not of yourselves, it's the gift of God--not by works, so that no man can boast. For you are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God created in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)

Sorry, I'm not trying to avoid your question. Keep in mind you're new, and I don't know you. I did not say "Ephesians is about faithfulness" or mean to say that. With reference to that verse I said "I think Ephesians is arguing that faithfulness is your part and grace is God's part, so I think the emphasis is on faithfulness while maintaining Paul's emphasis that your works aren't what provide communion." That directly relates to your question about the one verse, that it is not suggesting faith is required to be saved from anything. I also explained why I thought so -- that I think the word 'Faith' is inappropriate in this verse.

 

[atpollard]

Hi. So I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone. The grace is God's part and faith is our part. But I wonder if faith is the only condition we must meet. One biblical passage we might consider is:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)
​

I believe that the story of the thief on the cross beside Jesus does a good job of illustrating what is required from us ...

Luke 23:42-43

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”​

God expects us to lean (place all of the weight of our hope for getting into Heaven) on Jesus Christ and his work on our behalf.

• Thus it is GRACE ... unearned and not the wages of our own good works.
• This Grace is acquired by FAITH ... our decision to build our hope upon the promise and work of Jesus life, death and resurrection.
• This Faith is the GIFT OF GOD ... In my personal case, it was not my deep spiritual efforts that empowered me to find faith in Jesus. If I am honest, I had no real interest in finding God or Jesus. I just didn't care. It was God who pursued and wooed me over to a decision to consider that I might be willing to think about trusting him. God honored each baby step that he coaxed out of me, until one day I looked back and found myself walking ... following him.

From this personal experience of reality, I willingly respond with service to God, freely given.
Not in any effort to balance a scale of justice ... there are not sufficient good deeds to outweigh my debt of sin.
Not in any effort to buy favor with a Holy God ... I believe the scripture when it describes my best efforts as "filthy rags" and, frankly, attempting to buy love feels very crass.
Rather, my service is a gift from a grateful heart to his loving God.

Thus the reason to be concerned where you see no works is not because the Grace may not have been paid for (it cannot be paid for), but because the lack of gratitude suggests that the Grace was never received.

 

[Spockrates]

Sorry, I'm not trying to avoid your question. Keep in mind you're new, and I don't know you. I did not say "Ephesians is about faithfulness" or mean to say that. With reference to that verse I said "I think Ephesians is arguing that faithfulness is your part and grace is God's part, so I think the emphasis is on faithfulness while maintaining Paul's emphasis that your works aren't what provide communion." That directly relates to your question about the one verse, that it is not suggesting faith is required to be saved from anything. I also explained why I thought so -- that I think the word 'Faith' is inappropriate in this verse.

OK, thank you for explaining to this noob.



I'm not sure what you mean by inappropriate. Are you saying Paul was inappropriate in his choice of the word faith? Or are you saying Paul never did choose the word faith and the translation of the text is in error? Or are you saying something altogether different?