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Wondering About Forgiveness

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I would say that would more properly be called "compassion" rather than "forgiveness."

Yes, that's what some Christians tell me: There are no external acts of forgiveness. Nothing I say or do to benefit another is forgiving, though it is compassionate.

So should you and I say forgiveness is merely an emotion and never exists outside the mind or networked minds called Maara?
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Yes, that's what some Christians tell me. There are no external acts of forgiveness. Nothing I say or do to benefit another is forgiving, though it is compassionate. So should we say forgiveness is merely an emotion and never exists outside the mind or networked minds called Maara?
Forgiveness is not an emotion. It is an action. The specific action is removing the hatred and resentment in connection to the event from your mind--although your heart/mind will feel different once you unburden it of the hatred and resentment, as you are creating a change in the state of mind (referred to as citta in Buddhism.)
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Forgiveness is not an emotion. It is an action. The specific action is removing the hatred and resentment in connection to the event from your mind--although your heart/mind will feel different once you unburden it of the hatred and resentment, as you are creating a change in the state of mind (referred to as citta in Buddhism.)
I suppose we could get into the finer points of ridding oneself of hatred and resentment. An illustration: suppose you have burrs caught in your hair that are irritating you. You can either pick them out and throw them away, and run the risk of the seeds within the burrs of growing into new burr-bearing weeds that might infect others with burrs. Another tactic might be to crush or burn the seeds so they can't sprout. Another might be to feed them to the appropriate creature as food. I'm sure there are many other possibilities that will fit this illustration.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Then I'm glad to see I was mistaken, and you never were offended.

[emoji4]

Perhaps then you will bother to answer my questions?
You have had your turn asking.

I want to know the truth.
What is your motive for all of this?

I have explained to you that forgiveness is so simple that a child understands it and so complicated that a self appointed guru doesn't get it.
Yet here you are continuing to tell all of these unsuspecting people that come here, that you know nothing of forgiveness.
When you are asked direct questions you avoid them, when people post a message you repeat it back like you are a psychologist.

You may be able to pass this stuff by the average person (not for long) but the average person, I am not.
Your deception is good but not good enough.
This is not a place where people come to be studied.
People that come here to study others are just plain creepy.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@allfoak He is doing a Spock impression. I do not doubt it is real. I think it is cute.
Why do you doubt it is real?
Has he hit a nerve? Aren't you not suppose to have those? I got rid of mine. :) I had to.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Perhaps then you will bother to answer my questions?
You have had your turn asking.

I want to know the truth.
What is your motive for all of this?

I have explained to you that forgiveness is so simple that a child understands it and so complicated that a self appointed guru doesn't get it.
Yet here you are continuing to tell all of these unsuspecting people that come here, that you know nothing of forgiveness.
When you are asked direct questions you avoid them, when people post a message you repeat it back like you are a psychologist.

You may be able to pass this stuff by the average person (not for long) but the average person, I am not.
Your deception is good but not good enough.
This is not a place where people come to be studied.
People that come here to study others are just plain creepy.
I find the Socratic-style of questioning quite helpful for bringing things up out of the unconscious mind and clearly into the conscious mind where they can be carefully examined for errors and inconsistencies, as well as translated into concise, descriptive language. Some people might not like the process. (Hmm, perhaps people being uncomfortable with it might have had something to do with Socrates being sentenced to drinking hemlock? He was cutting into the Kool-Aid business by "corrupting the youth" into questioning the ingredients of Kool-Aid!)
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Not sure I understand. Are you saying it's sometimes necessary for you to forgive yourself, but it's never necessary for you to forgive someone else?

What I said: Yet, I still see in myself ways in which forgiveness is necessary for me.
What I also said: In reality, no one needs forgiveness.

The two aren't contradictory. Perception is a filter or veil pulled over reality. That reality is foremost about Self. And things aren't always as they seem. The reason I see forgiveness is necessary is because I perceive Self as split, separate from Self. Or perceive others as not Me. Seeing (reality of) everyone as Me, and knowing Love is complete/perfect within this Self, would render forgiveness as not necessary. Thus in reality, it is not necessary. Because I am willing to forego all that and hold conviction in an (alleged) existence of separation from Self, perceiving others, believing Love is between incomplete and not readily found, then it seems forgiveness is necessary. Emphasis on 'seems.' It is really just a desire, or offering to re-align what in reality is not out of accord, but due to my perception of reality/Self, is held in disaccord.

I do not see the two as honestly contradictory, but realize it may appear that way. From the perspective of 'forgiveness is not helpful,' and separation offers a lot more, the contradiction is a given. There is a duality at work (upholding the belief in separation) that cleverly masks itself with a broader, more superficial belief in plurality. Thus forgiveness appears to be about more (way more) than Me.

So do you mean it is unnecessary to overlook the the errors I perceive in others? That is, are you saying it is necessary to not overlook the errors of others?

My thought is there must be a typo in either premise (A) or premise (B) since they lead to what seems to me the opposite of the conclusion I think you trying to make.

It is not necessary for you to overlook the errors perceived in others. As in it is not a requirement from outside of you, placed upon you as if it is a burden, and salvation rests on you intellectually grasping this. In reality, you are, I am, we all are fine/perfect. If perfection currently strikes you as too high of a bar for you to see that in anyone, much less yourself, and you desire to see that, then forgiveness is the path to re-alignment. From the spiritual perspective, and answering the question of "why I am I here," then I see forgiveness as the only sane function. I hesitate to say that, due to my own desire to engage in other functions (namely to engage in what I perceive as enjoyment within the separation). Thus, if I say "forgiveness is your/my only function," I do get what this means, but also realize I am hypocritical in relation to that, for it is not the only function I engage in.

Wrapping one's head around what forgiveness is, as I said before, a lifelong process. I find it is really really obvious and very very simple to grasp intellectually. Seemingly too easy to understand. To apply, and apply consistently in all situations, is where the challenge comes. And seemingly never stops and also seemingly gets harder and harder.

Because of how simple it is to convey in words, and because I do recognize it as unnecessary in reality, I have high conviction that perfect knowledge of what forgiveness is, is known to all. To whatever degree that is presented as 'not true' to me, say by you claiming, "no really, I have no idea, please help me," is an intellectual exercise that may or may not show up as fruitful to me. I may never realize (intellectually) that you do understand. I do believe everyone practices actual forgiveness at least some of the time. As in, do you constantly focus on the errors of say Hitler and not allow yourself to live your life knowing the alleged horrors attributed to his persona? Or do you find yourself able to enjoy life, in your own way, by overlooking Hitler's errors, not to mention literally all errors by everyone, including own self, at least some of the time? Knowing you are able to find joy at any moment, and make that last, is partially how forgiveness is at work, and certain in its inevitable outcome (thus not really necessary). But understanding that today may be a day where you feel so at odds with another that death to them, or death to own self, suddenly seems rational, is the day where forgiveness suddenly becomes the most sane defense and 'necessary' for proper alignment of your Self.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
You seem to have some familiarity with the biblical texts, so you might also appreciate how this passage enhances the theological discussion:

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
(Ephesians 4:32)

Would you say the author is correct in asserting that you and I should forgive others the same way God forgives us?

An interesting question. I see the question you are stating, based on the passage you are quoting from, as asking: I should forgive others the same way God in Christ forgives us?

And my response, after some careful reflection is, simply, yes (this is correct).
It is exact same Way.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Well, there are people who say Socrates was a fictional character, but does that mean every idea attributed to him is not worthy of considering? (I'm not accusing, as I don't know what you believe about the things taught by Jesus.)

We have a saying in Judaism regarding the alleged writings of jesus:
"If it's good, it's not new
If it's new, it's not good."


That means that anything good about what jesus allegedly said was taken from the Hebrew bible. We've already got the original source, so there is no need to go to anyone else that repeated these things later. And when the writings about jesus talk about new things, we can reject them out of hand because they contradict the Hebrew bible.

In any case, your OP asked about the concept of forgiveness from people of all religions. I don't care to talk about another religion's god anymore. Please stop referring to jesus in your questions to me.
 
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Acim

Revelation all the time
We have a saying in Judaism regarding the alleged writings of jesus:
"If it's good, it's not new
If it's new, it's not good."

It would be interesting, and perhaps appropriate, if Judaism applied this saying to Genesis 2, after reading of Genesis 1.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You think i am being to hard on him?
i would like to dialogue with him but it is all one way.
I think you must own some of that. But who am I?
What I mean is that you might perceive it all one way when it really isn't.
I might be wrong. You might be right. But he isn't either from my point of view because he has not settled yet. Like a bird.
 
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