Wondering About Forgiveness

[Spockrates]

Heathen; Anglo-Saxon-esque, Revivalist, Ritualist-Universalist. (Mind, "Universalism" in Heathenry doesn't quite mean what it usually does. In this context it refers to the belief that "anyone can be Heathen"; it's opposite/enemy is Folkism.)

Letting go of a grudge, either with others or oneself, without wergild.

It's not that simple, nor is forgiveness a matter that's terribly important in my religion.

Something that's just part of Heathenry right now is that being a Heathen inherently means having enemies, since we kind of have a reputation for being... shall we say, aggressively opinionated?

However, if there's one place where I definitely think forgiveness should be implemented is with oneself. I've seen what self-loathing does to people, and that's not something I wish upon anyone. (Note, however, that that's a personal belief of mine; it has nothing to do with my religion.)

Well, we don't really regard such texts as super-authoritative. We're free to agree/disagree with pretty much anything in such books as we will.

I'm woefully ignorant of Heathenism. I tend to think of it more as a philosophy than a religion. Forgive the stupidity of the question: Is it a kind of religious atheism?

 

[Spockrates]

Forgiveness is an exercise in self-worth.
If one is instructed to forgive regardless of the action of another, then the only purpose for doing it would be for your own peace of mind.
What forgiveness does, is it allows resentment to be released, which creates an environment conducive to healing.

So forgiveness is something you do for yourself, but not for another?

 

[crossfire]

Thanks. The text at the link mentions Mara. Who's she?

Māra (or Maara--typically anthropomorphized as male) is the collective groupthink mind (egregor) which propagates disinformation (or "propaganda") which can then be energized by strong emotions. When energized by one of the three poisons of greed, hatred, or delusion, individual's minds are easily over come by the emotion and the groupthink propaganda, and will do irrational things (kill, steal, tell lies, etc) and urge others to do likewise.

 

[savagewind]

I want to learn about different religious beliefs. Not sure, but I'm thinking that comparing ideas about something we all have in common--forgiving--might open my eyes a little. So please tell me:

• What's your religion?

I am a (Jesus) Christ believer. I am not a member of any human religion.

• What do you believe forgiveness is?

I am not qualified to believe much about what forgiveness is but I think the most important aspect of forgiveness is not to judge what a person might do now or later because of anything a person has done (in the past).

• When do you believe you should forgive and when should you not forgive?

I should forgive whenever I am able to forgive. I should not forgive bad behavior until it is evident to me that it isn't on purpose. I should not forgive unrepentant bad behavior. And also, it is nice if a person who has done something rotten to me asks for forgiveness but that is not necessary imo.

If you want, feel free to cite a text from a religious author, so I may look it up myself.

Whenever I can not think of a specific text but I think I need one, I go to What the Bible says about____. I type in forgiveness and Google gives me Matthew 6:14-15 I believe that.

 

[crossfire]

Māra (or Maara--typically anthropomorphized as male) is the collective groupthink mind (egregor) which propagates disinformation (or "propaganda") which can then be energized by strong emotions. When energized by one of the three poisons of greed, hatred, or delusion, individual's minds are easily over come by the emotion and the groupthink propaganda, and will do irrational things (kill, steal, tell lies, etc) and urge others to do likewise.

I remember a story in the New Testament about a demon (or group of demons) that were cast out of people and sent into a herd of swine. This might be a slightly different representation of Māra than is typical in Buddhism, but fits the behaviour of Māra.

 

[allfoak]

So forgiveness is something you do for yourself, but not for another?

How can it be any other way?
We are instructed to forgive regardless of whether the forgiveness is accepted by the other or not.
We cannot bring healing to another when we are full of resentment.

 

[George-ananda]

Thanks George. Would you say forgiveness is only a feeling, or more than a feeling?

More like rational control over destructive impulses towards anger, vengeance and hatred.

 

[savagewind]

It is human nature for people to respond "in kind". It is natural to mimic a person's bad behavior. I think an important aspect of forgiveness is to refrain from doing that. I see it all the time on the forum. Someone posts something that is true but hits a wrong nerve and the one hit responds very badly. The one responding badly has not mastered forgiveness imo. I think one reason that there are very few meaningful discussions on the forum is because real forgiveness is rare.

 

[RRex]

It is human nature for people to respond "in kind". It is natural to mimic a person's bad behavior.

I agree. I think revenge is a basic human albeit primitive drive.

 

[Acim]

I want to learn about different religious beliefs. Not sure, but I'm thinking that comparing ideas about something we all have in common--forgiving--might open my eyes a little. So please tell me:

• What's your religion?

Non-denominational Christian.

• What do you believe forgiveness is?

Overlooking error (or sin) in your own mind, especially when your mind projects errors onto the world, onto others. So forgiveness is foremost for your self, though it can help in early practice as if it is about another. But if hung up on notion that it is always about others, then it may deny the role Self plays in forgiveness.

Forgiveness replaces error with Love, putting things in proper perspective. When the Love is accepted, a miracle occurs. Miracles are natural, when they do not occur, something has gone wrong.

• When do you believe you should forgive and when should you not forgive?

Forgive when guilt, separation (from God) or need for suffering are deemed worthwhile for Life (survival). No need for forgiveness when Love is maximal.

 

[Spockrates]

Māra (or Maara--typically anthropomorphized as male) is the collective groupthink mind (egregor) which propagates disinformation (or "propaganda") which can then be energized by strong emotions. When energized by one of the three poisons of greed, hatred, or delusion, individual's minds are easily over come by the emotion and the groupthink propaganda, and will do irrational things (kill, steal, tell lies, etc) and urge others to do likewise.

No relation then to the goddess of love in the pantheon of the Elder Scrolls game, I see.

 

[Spockrates]

I am a (Jesus) Christ believer. I am not a member of any human religion.

I am not qualified to believe much about what forgiveness is but I think the most important aspect of forgiveness is not to judge what a person might do now or later because of anything a person has done (in the past).

I should forgive whenever I am able to forgive. I should not forgive bad behavior until it is evident to me that it isn't on purpose. I should not forgive unrepentant bad behavior. And also, it is nice if a person who has done something rotten to me asks for forgiveness but that is not necessary imo.

Whenever I can not think of a specific text but I think I need one, I go to What the Bible says about____. I type in forgiveness and Google gives me Matthew 6:14-15 I believe that.

4 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."
(Matthew 6)

Thanks, savage wind. I think you are right on in saying we should forgive those who are ignorant of their sin. Since you quoted Christ, I'm sure you recall that he prayed on the cross, "Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing." What you say about people who know what they have done is wrong need to repent also sounds logical.

So what do you think of the words of Jesus you quoted? Is he saying we should forgive everyone everything every time, or he won't forgive us? Or is he saying he won't forgive us only if we fail to forgive when we are certain we should? Or is he saying something altogether different?

 

[Spockrates]

I remember a story in the New Testament about a demon (or group of demons) that were cast out of people and sent into a herd of swine. This might be a slightly different representation of Māra than is typical in Buddhism, but fits the behaviour of Māra.

Yes, as I recall, Jesus spoke to a man possessed and asked him his name. In reply he said something like, "We are Legion, because we are many." Then they begged him not to send them to some place they did not want to go, so he cast them into a herd of pigs, which then ran off a cliff, killing themselves. Whether the story was historical or an allegory, I don't know.

So Mara is a group of spiritual beings with malicious intent?

 

[savagewind]

So what do you think of the words of Jesus you quoted? Is he saying we should forgive everyone everything every time, or he won't forgive us?

no. It can't mean that because there are sins that are not forgiven. Sins against the Holy Spirit are not forgiven and I do not know about those.

Or is he saying he won't forgive us only if we fail to forgive when we are certain we should?

That can't be it. There is not much that I am certain about.

Or is he saying something altogether different?

Jesus said they who "sin against me" I should forgive. Someone sinning against you I do not forgive. It is not my business.

 

[Spockrates]

How can it be any other way?
We are instructed to forgive regardless of whether the forgiveness is accepted by the other or not.
We cannot bring healing to another when we are full of resentment.

It seems then forgiving must be merely a selfish act that benefits oneself and never selfless act to benefit another. True?

 

[savagewind]

It seems then forgiving must be merely a selfish act that benefits oneself and never selfless act to benefit another. True?

False. Forgiveness benefits the forgiven if they know they are forgiven.

 

[Spockrates]

no. It can't mean that because there are sins that are not forgiven. Sins against the Holy Spirit are not forgiven and I do not know about those.That can't be it. There is not much that I am certain about. Jesus said they who "sin against me" I should forgive. Someone sinning against you I do not forgive. It is not my business.

I think I see, but tell me if I still have mud in my eyes. When you say, "I should not forgive bad behavior until it is evident to me that it isn't on purpose," you mean you should not forgive bad behavior purposefully done against me, but you should always forgive bad behavior purposefully done against you.

Also when you say, "I should not forgive unrepentant bad behavior," what you mean is you should not forgive unrepentant bad behavior done against me, but you should always forgive unrepentant bad behavior done against you.

Am I now seeing the truth you see, or is it still only clear as mud to me?

 

[Spockrates]

False. Forgiveness benefits the forgiven if they know they are forgiven.

Thanks, but I was asking if I had a true understanding of what allfoak was trying to teach me, not if you believed what allfoak was saying is true. [emoji846]

 

[savagewind]

I think I see, but tell me if I still have mud in my eyes. When you say, "I should not forgive bad behavior until it is evident to me that it isn't on purpose," you mean you should not forgive bad behavior purposefully done against me, but you should always forgive bad behavior purposefully done against you.

Also when you say, "I should not forgive unrepentant bad behavior," what you mean is you should not forgive unrepentant bad behavior done against me, but you should always forgive unrepentant bad behavior done against you.

Am I now seeing the truth you see, or is it still only clear as mud to me?

That sounds correct. 1 Thessalonians 4:11 I think I have no right to forgive anyone for sinning against YOU.

 

[savagewind]

Thanks, but I was asking if I had a true understanding of what allfoak was trying to teach me, not if you believed what allfoak was saying is true. [emoji846]

Yes. LOL. He might answer you whether I do or not imo. I am sorry. Please forgive me for butting into someone else's business.