Wondering About Forgiveness

[Quintessence]

I think, perhaps my understanding of paganism is a bit outdated. The religions of Socrates' time come to mind. From what I understand of witches--and I'm sure it's more likely a misunderstanding--they somehow worship nature and for them casting spells is more like a prayer. Forgive my ignorance and please try not to laugh as you correct me!

You could more or less characterize it that way, though as a simplification, it has its inaccuracies. There is Witchcraft and witchcraft - I put it in proper case like that to designate I'm talking about a religious approach, not simply a practice of spellcraft. If we're referencing simply a practice of spellcraft, then witchcraft (lower case) doesn't involve any sort of worship and can be atheistic. But in terms of being a contemporary religious movement, it'll tend to involve "folksy" or "naturey" stuff, which may or may not be accurately characterized as "nature worship." It might be better to say that various aspects of the world called "nature" are viewed as partners and equals, where they might be honored and revered (aka, worshiped), but might not be. Depends on the practitioner. As for spellcraft being like prayer, it's presented that way mostly to help outsiders (usually Christian or with a Christian background) to understand. There's a critical difference between the two: prayer is a passive "fix it for me, God" sort of thing. Spellcraft is very much the opposite - it is an active "I am a creature of power and taking charge of my own life." One don't expect hand outs or a free lunch, I guess.

so would you say not holding a grudge is pretty much all forgiving is?

In terms of the function it holds for the person doing the forgiving, that's what makes sense to me at this present moment. Often, but not always, there's the other facets of it, though. The term "forgiveness" is typically relational. There's an object of forgiveness, and a relationship between the two or more objects as well. Words like "grudge" might not characterize those other facets.

 

[allfoak]

"Why is it that i don't remember Rabbit"?
"Well perhaps you shouldn't remember" said the Rabbit.
"Remember what "said Alice?
Whatever it is that you have forgotten of course" said the Rabbit.

"Maybe i didn't forget" said Alice.
"Well, you are here aren't you" said the Rabbit?
Maybe i'm just learning instead of forgetting" said Alice?
"I don't know Alice" said the Rabbit.
"How can you be learning something that you already know"?

"I don't know" said Alice?
"but i am"

"Off i go"..

"But Alice" yelled the Rabbit!
"What do you already know"?

"Oh dear"...

 

[savagewind]

Please let me carefully consider your idea. You say forgiveness is the power to act, but not the act of forgiving itself.

Do you mean to say, forgiveness is the power to act, but not the acts which forgiveness promotes?
Because the phrase "forgiveness is not the act of forgiving itself" does not make sense to me. It says, "forgiveness is not forgiveness". But it is.

So the Mad Hatter says, "Friends, acquaintances, and countrymen: Let us not be so odd as to be at odds with one another. But let us commit acts of love and forgiveness toward one another!"

OK. I think that is true but also not quite right. I think love and forgiveness are not different things.

Would you say, my friend,

I love you too

that Alex ought to correct him, saying, this? "My dear sir, how shall we do such a thing, since it is quite impossible to do? Love and forgiveness are powers, not acts. There simply is no such thing as an act of love and forgiveness!"

I feel my head full of smoke. Who is Alex? Do you mean Alice? LOL
Alice is not the smoke.
It is not impossible to power up love and forgiveness. So I said that real forgiveness is the power to forgive. That makes more sense to me that your smoke does. I am sorry.
Electricity is power to light a light. Love and forgiveness together is the power to light spirit and heart.

 

[allfoak]

"Forgiveness just is.
"I can't find it anywhere, yet everywhere i go it is there" said Alice.

"What can't you find" asked the Rabbit?
"I can find it " said Alice.
"Find what" asked the Rabbit?
"Forgiveness" said Alice.
"Where is it then" asked the Rabbit?
"Show me"
"I can't" said Alice.
"But you said you found it" said the Rabbit.
"It is everywhere" said Alice.
"Then why don't i see it" asked the Rabbit?
"I don't know" said Alice.

"You must know something of where it is to be found since you found it" said the Rabbit.
"I suppose you are correct" said Alice.

"Off i go"...

"Alice wait".... yelled the Rabbit!

"Oh dear"....

 

[savagewind]

I think that forgiveness and all the acts which forgiveness promotes are the same. They are not two different things for separate consideration. Forgiveness and the acts of forgiveness are always to be considered together.

 

[crossfire]

Fascinating! So is this a kind of shared thought?

More like Matthew 18:18-20 (to put it into Christian terms). "I am there among them." That's a Maara.
Notice how after Jesus's death, he appeared to his disciples (through other people,) and the disciples didn't recognize him right away? That's a Maara.
The people at the Tower of Babel are said to have acted with one mind to make a name for themselves. (before they were scattered.) That's a Maara.
A "spirit" that only speaks through someone else--never directly--and can go from person to person--that's a Maara.
A "pep rally" is an attempt to create a Maara to energize a group for a specific purpose.
The people who rallied the crowd against Jesus at his trial were attempting to create a Maara. (And did, as the authorities then feared the crowd.)

Hopefully, these examples give you an idea of what I'm referring to.

 

[Spockrates]

Then spit it out!
You have to be able to logically follow your own thoughts out to the end.
Perhaps you are afraid to tumble down the hole.

" Why do things seem so strange down here Rabbit"?
I don't know Alice, why are things strange anywhere"?

"What i mean Rabbit, is why are the one's down here so different than the one's up there"?
"That's easy Alice, the people up there don't know that down here even exists".
"That would not only make us strange but non-existent" said the Rabbit.

"But didn't i come from up there"? said Alice.
"I don't know" said the Rabbit.
"You followed me down here, remember"?

"I suppose you are correct Rabbit".
"Well off i go"... said Alice.

"What about the reason you came here Alice"! yelled the Rabbit.

"Oh dear"!...

You mean spit out what my contrary ideas of forgiveness are?

 

[Spockrates]

You could more or less characterize it that way, though as a simplification, it has its inaccuracies. There is Witchcraft and witchcraft - I put it in proper case like that to designate I'm talking about a religious approach, not simply a practice of spellcraft. If we're referencing simply a practice of spellcraft, then witchcraft (lower case) doesn't involve any sort of worship and can be atheistic. But in terms of being a contemporary religious movement, it'll tend to involve "folksy" or "naturey" stuff, which may or may not be accurately characterized as "nature worship." It might be better to say that various aspects of the world called "nature" are viewed as partners and equals, where they might be honored and revered (aka, worshiped), but might not be. Depends on the practitioner. As for spellcraft being like prayer, it's presented that way mostly to help outsiders (usually Christian or with a Christian background) to understand. There's a critical difference between the two: prayer is a passive "fix it for me, God" sort of thing. Spellcraft is very much the opposite - it is an active "I am a creature of power and taking charge of my own life." One don't expect hand outs or a free lunch, I guess.

Thanks for the explanation.

In terms of the function it holds for the person doing the forgiving, that's what makes sense to me at this present moment. Often, but not always, there's the other facets of it, though. The term "forgiveness" is typically relational. There's an object of forgiveness, and a relationship between the two or more objects as well. Words like "grudge" might not characterize those other facets.

Yes, sounds logical to me, but let me be sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you thinking that for forgiveness to affect a relationship between two or more people, it must be more than a feeling? It must be act taken perhaps by one who is taking charge of his or her own life? That is, it's something one says or does to reconcile, restore or renew a relationship?

 

[allfoak]

"Okay Alice, now that you are back from somewhere" said the Rabbit.
"Maybe you can answer the question now"?
"I am always here" said Alice.
You must have gone somewhere" said the Rabbit.
"If i went somewhere then that somewhere must be here" said Alice.
"It seems to me like i am always here no matter where i go"
"How can you be somewhere and here too" asked the Rabbit?
" Wait"!
"That is not the question"

"What question" said Alice?
"The question i asked you to answer" said the Rabbit.
" I answered your question Rabbit" said Alice.
"No! not that question". shouted the Rabbit!

"I'm sorry Rabbit, what was the question" asked Alice?
"The question about forgiveness of course" said the Rabbit.
"Didn't i answer that question Rabbit"?

"You said it is everywhere and nowhere, kind of like you saying you are somewhere and here at the same time" said the Rabbit.
"I don't know what to think might be the answer".

"Something is everywhere Rabbit" said Alice.
" What something and how can it be everywhere" asked the Rabbit?
I'm not sure what it is Rabbit, some call it the All" said Alice.
"That's a good name, cause it is always here".

"What does that have to do with forgiveness Alice" asked the Rabbit?
Forgiveness is everywhere" said Alice.
"I know" said the Rabbit.
"You said that already".

"I'm sorry Rabbit" said Alice.
"The All is the source of forgiveness".

The All is the source of forgiveness" repeated the Rabbit to himself.
The All is everywhere, the source of forgiveness" said the Rabbit to himself.

"Perhaps now you know" said Alice.

"Off I go"...

"Wait!" shouted the Rabbit!
"What about the other question"?

Rabbit heard a faint echo of what sounded like;
"Is there another question"? As Alice faded into somewhere.

"Oh dear"...

 

[allfoak]

You mean spit out what my contrary ideas of forgiveness are?

At least so you can see them.
It is for your benefit not ours.

 

[Spockrates]

Do you mean to say, forgiveness is the power to act, but not the acts which forgiveness promotes?
Because the phrase "forgiveness is not the act of forgiving itself" does not make sense to me. It says, "forgiveness is not forgiveness". But it is.

OK. I think that is true but also not quite right. I think love and forgiveness are not different things.

I love you too I feel my head full of smoke. Who is Alex? Do you mean Alice? LOL
Alice is not the smoke.
It is not impossible to power up love and forgiveness. So I said that real forgiveness is the power to forgive. That makes more sense to me that your smoke does. I am sorry.
Electricity is power to light a light. Love and forgiveness together is the power to light spirit and heart.

Yes, Allfoak said we were following the white rabbit down his hole, so I suggested that I'd play the part of Alex, since I don't look at all attractive in a dress. LOL![emoji1]

OK, so let's take a more serious look at your idea: Are you saying forgiveness is the power to act, but not the acts which forgiveness promotes?

 

[savagewind]

Yes, Allfoak said we were following the white rabbit down his hole, so I suggested that I'd play the part of Alex, since I don't look at all attractive in a dress. LOL![emoji1]

OK, so let's take a more serious look at your idea: Are you saying forgiveness is the power to act, but not the acts which forgiveness promotes?

I think I said it is both. If nothing results after a forgiveness thought then the thought of forgiveness was not true imo. Will your electric lamp light without electricity? No. But when you switch on the electricity and the light together what do you have?
The lamp is evidence of the act. You must have something to forgive for forgiveness to act upon.
That is why perfection is not a good thing

Did nobody notice my perfect score in my sharing picture? LOL But I suppose it wasn't perfectly perfect. One more hit the moon and it would have been perfect.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, sounds logical to me, but let me be sure I'm understanding correctly. Are you thinking that for forgiveness to affect a relationship between two or more people, it must be more than a feeling? It must be act taken perhaps by one who is taking charge of his or her own life? That is, it's something one says or does to reconcile, restore or renew a relationship?

Given I see reality as an interconnected weave, all things affect all other things in some fashion. How direct the impact is, and how impactful a given observer perceives things to be, though, can definitely vary. In the sense that affects impact how a creature carries itself, the affect - the feelings - are impactful. Toxic affect means one walks around with chips on the shoulder, which means one is more reactive and nasty when that chip gets jostled, for example. Action is important, but affect impacts how one reacts to things in the environment. To put it another way, I tend to think about things in terms of virtue/character, rather than right/wrong behaviors. Does one want to harbor a character that is toxically reactive, or one that smiles and bends with the wind?

 

[Spockrates]

More like Matthew 18:18-20 (to put it into Christian terms). "I am there among them." That's a Maara.
Notice how after Jesus's death, he appeared to his disciples (through other people,) and the disciples didn't recognize him right away? That's a Maara.
The people at the Tower of Babel are said to have acted with one mind to make a name for themselves. (before they were scattered.) That's a Maara.
A "spirit" that only speaks through someone else--never directly--and can go from person to person--that's a Maara.
A "pep rally" is an attempt to create a Maara to energize a group for a specific purpose.
The people who rallied the crowd against Jesus at his trial were attempting to create a Maara. (And did, as the authorities then feared the crowd.)

Hopefully, these examples give you an idea of what I'm referring to.

Matthew 18:18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

So the question that comes to mind when I read these words is, "Wait! What? What is binding and loosing?" I think perhaps the context explains:

Matthew 18:15-17 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

It seems binding and loosing has to do with deciding to discipline (bind) or not discipline (loose) a person within a religious group for some wrong he or she has committed. Is the behavior serious enough to remove the person from some position of authority or to ask the person to leave the group? If so, then the the decision is to discipline. If not, then the decision is to not discipline, though perhaps some promise from the offender that the behavior won't be repeated might be necessary.

Now there might be some spiritual ideas in this decision making process, that God will guide the group to make the correct decision to "bind" (or hold the person accountable for the misconduct) or "loose" (or not hold the person accountable).

Matthew 18:19-20 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

So is this what you mean by Mara? Is it a group effort to come to an ethically correct decision, perhaps at times with some divine guidance?

 

[allfoak]

Yes, Allfoak said we were following the white rabbit down his hole, so I suggested that I'd play the part of Alex, since I don't look at all attractive in a dress. LOL!

You didn't follow.
If you want to know any more there will have to be some give and take.

1 John 1:5New International Version (NIV)
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

 

[Spockrates]

You didn't follow.
If you want to know any more there will have to be some give and take.

What do you want me to give? What do you want me to take?

 

[Spockrates]

Given I see reality as an interconnected weave, all things affect all other things in some fashion. How direct the impact is, and how impactful a given observer perceives things to be, though, can definitely vary. In the sense that affects impact how a creature carries itself, the affect - the feelings - are impactful. Toxic affect means one walks around with chips on the shoulder, which means one is more reactive and nasty when that chip gets jostled, for example. Action is important, but affect impacts how one reacts to things in the environment. To put it another way, I tend to think about things in terms of virtue/character, rather than right/wrong behaviors. Does one want to harbor a character that is toxically reactive, or one that smiles and bends with the wind?

Yes, it seems the times I emotionally react out of fear, annoyance or anger are the times when I often are afterwards embarrassed or ashamed.

 

[allfoak]

What do you want me to give? What do you want me to take?

You ask question after question of people as if you are studying them, rather than looking for answers for yourself, which is what you claim to be doing.
Not sure if anyone actually knows your position on the subject, which means that we all take the time to answer your questions and you go away leaving us wondering if you ever heard anything that was said.

 

[savagewind]

You ask question after question of people as if you are studying them, rather than looking for answers for yourself, which is what you claim to be doing.
Not sure if anyone actually knows your position on the subject, which means that we all take the time to answer your questions and you go away leaving us wondering if you ever heard anything that was said.

I had the same feeling that we are being tested. I hope it is for something good!

 

[crossfire]

So is this what you mean by Mara? Is it a group effort to come to an ethically correct decision, perhaps at times with some divine guidance?

No. That might be the answer of those who are under the influence of Maara, but that is not the message conveyed in the Dhammapada that you asked about.

Maara (groupthink) can overcome your mind, and you often toss ethics out the window when this is the case. People will often do unethical things when they are part of a mob under the influence of Maara that they normally wouldn't do otherwise.

You want to be able to resist Mara from overcoming your mind and think for yourself. You want to be able to resist the mob mentality. Sure, some useful information might be found in a group or cultural memetic body of knowledge. However, poisonous emotions like greed, hatred, and delusion can also quickly spread malignantly through this, giving rise to mob and tribal-type violent behavior.