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Wondering About Forgiveness

Spockrates

Wonderer.
What have you learned after six pages of posts? Anything relevant to your situation?

I've learned that you have a talent for explaining what you believe clearly, concisely and cogently. It only took one post for me to understand you.

But that doesn't mean there is any flaw in the way others have tried to communicate their thoughts to me. The flaw is most likely in my failure to comprehend them. If I were more intelligent and more experienced in studying other religions, I'd more likely have a better understanding of everyone here.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
@Spockrates

It seems a bit strange this need of yours.
Forgiveness is a concept that a child understands.

While it is possible to understand the concept on a level that a child does not understand, you seem to be able to understand none of it.
Thus the question of whether or not you are a sociopath.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I've learned that you have a talent for explaining what you believe clearly, concisely and cogently. It only took one post for me to understand you.

But that doesn't mean there is any flaw in the way others have tried to communicate their thoughts to me. The flaw is most likely in my failure to comprehend them. If I were more intelligent and more experienced in studying other religions, I'd more likely have a better understanding of everyone here.
I think that as long as you want to forgive you can, do and will. If there is something that you think you want to forgive but feel as though you can not, then give it time. I believe in God so I know that waiting will work. I can't say I know how it works for people not believing.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
@Spockrates

It seems a bit strange this need of yours.
Forgiveness is a concept that a child understands.

While it is possible to understand the concept on a level that a child does not understand, you seem to be able to understand none of it.
Thus the question of whether or not you are a sociopath.

Perhaps since I don't understand what you believe by what you say, I might understand what you believe by how you act. Would you say calling me a sociopath is an example of forgiveness?
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Perhaps since I don't understand what you believe by what you say, I might understand what you believe by how you act. Would you say calling me a sociopath is an example of forgiveness?

Here we go...
This is how it starts.
People get offended and emotion gets in the way of being able to read clearly.
I never called you a sociopath.
The idea was presented by way of a question.

Perhaps it is time for this to end?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I think that as long as you want to forgive you can, do and will. If there is something that you think you want to forgive but feel as though you can not, then give it time. I believe in God so I know that waiting will work. I can't say I know how it works for people not believing.

But my friend, is it enough for you and I to want to want to forgive, if we are uncertain what forgiveness is? Recall the words of Jesus you earlier quoted to me:

14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew 6)

Now you and I both want to be forgiven by G-d. Yet Jesus says that if we fail to forgive, G-d won't forgive us. Let's say we don't know how to forgive, or we think we know, but we are self-deceived, and we really are not doing what we want and think we are. Instead of forgiving, we're falling short and failing miserably! So having failed to forgive, is Jesus saying G-d will withhold forgiveness from us?

So it seems to me that from a Christian point of view one has incentive to understand forgiveness as best as she can. What do you think?
 
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Spockrates

Wonderer.
Here we go...
This is how it starts.
People get offended and emotion gets in the way of being able to read clearly.
I never called you a sociopath.
The idea was presented by way of a question.

Perhaps it is time for this to end?

Forgive me if I misunderstood. Maybe there is some language barrier? I thought you said you were seriously questioning whether I was a sociopath.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But my friend, is it enough for you and I to want to want to forgive, if we are uncertain what forgiveness is? Recall the words of Jesus you earlier quoted to me:

14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew 16)

Now you and I both want to be forgiven by G-d. Yet Jesus says that if we fail to forgive, G-d won't forgive us. Let's say we don't know how to forgive, or we think we know, but we are self-deceived, and we really are not doing what we want and think we are. Instead of forgiving, we falling short and failing miserably. So having failed to forgive, is Jesus saying G-d will withhold forgiveness from us?
First of all I never and probably never will think that you are a sociopath. I think that even asking someone is rude.

Trust in God with all your heart and on understanding do not lean. Proverbs 3:5 *I think that I do agree with @allfoak that it is possible to forgive and to be forgiven without the knowledge of what it is all about. A child does not know what it is about but children know how to do it. I think that healthy children even expect to be forgiven but it is not a conscious thought.

*I would like to add here (though off topic) that I am sure some scribe added "own" there and that it does not belong.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
First of all I never and probably never will think that you are a sociopath. I think that even asking someone is rude.

Perhaps, but I don't think we should be quick to judge. Maybe in Allfoak's culture, his remarks would not be taken as seriously accusing me of a psychological disorder. As I said to Allfoak, there must be some language barrier.

Trust in God with all your heart and on understanding do not lean. Proverbs 3:5 *I think that I do agree with @allfoak that it is possible to forgive and to be forgiven without the knowledge of what it is all about. A child does not know what it is about but children know how to do it. I think that healthy children even expect to be forgiven but it is not a conscious thought.

*I would like to add here (though off topic) that I am sure some scribe added "own" there and that it does not belong.

Yes, but the same scripture that says,

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heartand lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him,and he will make your paths straight.

also says,

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,”says the Lord.“Though your sins are like scarlet,they shall be as white as snow;though they are red as crimson,they shall be like wool."

So perhaps G-d is wanting us to grow up? Instead of remaining in our ignorance and trusting we're doing right, maybe G-d wants us to use the reason he gave us to better understand how we should best love and forgive with each opportunity G-d gives?

I suspect that even Socrates was right when he said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." (Apology).
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Perhaps, but I don't think we should be quick to judge. Maybe in Allfoak's culture, his remarks would not be taken as seriously accusing me of a psychological disorder. As I said to Allfoak, there must be some language barrier.



Yes, but the same scripture that says,

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heartand lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him,and he will make your paths straight.

also says,

Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,”says the Lord.“Though your sins are like scarlet,they shall be as white as snow;though they are red as crimson,they shall be like wool."

So perhaps G-d is wanting us to grow up? Instead of remaining in our ignorance and trusting we're doing right, maybe G-d wants us to use the reason he gave us to better understand how we should best love and forgive with each opportunity G-d gives?

I suspect that even Socrates was right when he said, "The I examined life is not worth living." (Apology).
The I examined life is not worth living did not make sense to me so I looked it up. It seems you have added the word "I". Did you mean to?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
You can say whatever you want about fictional characters. I believe there was a debate if Dumbledore was really gay.

Well, there are people who say Socrates was a fictional character, but does that mean every idea attributed to him is not worthy of considering? (I'm not accusing, as I don't know what you believe about the things taught by Jesus.)
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
The I examined life is not worth living did not make sense to me so I looked it up. It seems you have added the word "I". Did you mean to?

Sorry, typo. It's unexamined life. I'd define it as a life one lives without giving much thought to wether one is living as one should.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry, typo. It's unexamined life. I'd define it as a life one lives without giving much thought to wether one is living as one should.
I understand. Though when I looked it up (I am sure I had heard it before) my attention was off the word unexamined and I read, "the examined life is not worth living" and I thought that is also true. If I might worry about everything I think, do and say, my life would um (in America we say) suck.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I understand. Though when I looked it up (I am sure I had heard it before) my attention was off the word unexamined and I read, "the examined life is not worth living" and I thought that is also true. If I might worry about everything I think, do and say, my life would um (in America we say) suck.

No, your attention was correct. I edited the comment after you replied.

[emoji4]
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, your attention was correct. I edited the comment after you replied.

[emoji4]
No. We are misunderstanding each other. When I googled it I read it with the I gone but with the word examined remaining.
The I examined life is not worth living
The examined life is not worth living
The unexamined life is not worth living
The third one is what he said. I think I do not agree with it exactly.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I'm looking to learn what forgiveness is. For once I know what it is, I'll know how to forgive. Because I want to be forgiving.

I wish it worked like that.

I see you trying to understand forgiveness specifically.

I believe learning forgiveness is a lifelong process. You may never know for sure what it is, how it works. But I think you can have an understanding of how it actually works apart from certain distortions.

Once you have an inkling of how it actually works, it would be hard to then suggest you have no idea how it works. Such an assertion may work on open forum with 'others' who don't know what you do understand, but I wonder how it would work for your own self when do you have some understanding, but pretend to have none?

To me, knowing how to forgive (as if that equates to knowledge) is actually knowing how to position yourself in any relationship so that forgiveness is seen for what it is, not necessary. It is only when a relationship is perceived as being out of balance where forgiveness is seen as plausible/necessary. In reality, no one needs forgiveness. Knowing that, I find, is very challenging. I think of it as lifelong journey. Saying it, as if I fully understand that, easy peasy. Like saying 2+2=4. I write it as truth. I understand it as truth. Yet, I still see in myself ways in which forgiveness is necessary for me.

In short sound bite form, forgiveness is: overlooking the error(s) you perceive in others.

It is important to realize it is not really (really) about others. It can be helpful early on in learning to use forgiveness if you make it entirely about others. Cause what forgiveness actually entails is adjusting your own filter about who 'others' are in reality to You.

So, if there is someone you (or I) have a grudge against, and perhaps reasons that feel self justified for maintaining that grudge, then it can help to use forgiveness as if overlooking the error will somehow impact them, as if it is THEIR ERROR. I emphasize 'their error,' because prior to my having a more acute understanding of how forgiveness works, I knew of no way to see it as 'my error.' I pretended like I did, and tried earnestly to see it in that way. But really understanding the nature of forgiveness, is understanding your own self and how mind works. If mind is split, where separation is identified as 'reality' then it may seem as it will forever be challenging to see another person's error as 'my responsibility.' Let's take Hitler as a pretty good example. Are Hitler's errors my responsibility or Hitler's? In the world of separation, it would seem impossible for me to identify Hitler's errors as my own. In actual reality, Hitler is not outside of me. I give (my version of) Hitler all the meaning it has for me. Therefore, it is my responsibility to forgive that. In some ways, forgiving Hitler is far (far) easier than forgiving say a relative you meet with regularly, or friend, or co-worker. Because you aren't likely to encounter that perceived error in Hitler ever again. With the person(s) you visit regularly, you will be tested. You'll self identify it as a test. And part of that test will be understanding who is responsible for the perceived error. Hence, a lifelong process.

It would be wonderful, IMHO, if the sound bite form of forgiveness was all it took to fully accomplish (and fully understand how) forgiveness (works). In some cases, if you practice forgiveness hourly, it will work as if very little effort or testing was needed. You feel full forgiveness. It seems, in those moments, like it is easy and how could it not be done by everyone given how easy it is. Yet, in my experience (YMMV), there are instances where forgiving once, doesn't quite cut it. Why? Because you are (or I am) very willing to reinforce the error rather than be vigilant for the peace (of God).

I could go on for another umpteen paragraphs on this. Haven't even mentioned the Love aspect for which forgiveness is ultimately aiming. Once you fully forgive, Love returns to your awareness. You realize it never truly left, but was kept at bay or disregarded in favor of the error. When the Love is realized and you are acting in relation to a perceived other, a miracle is not only plausible, but from the forgiven perspective, natural. When miracles don't occur, something has gone wrong.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
But my friend, is it enough for you and I to want to want to forgive, if we are uncertain what forgiveness is? Recall the words of Jesus you earlier quoted to me:

14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew 16)

Now you and I both want to be forgiven by G-d. Yet Jesus says that if we fail to forgive, G-d won't forgive us. Let's say we don't know how to forgive, or we think we know, but we are self-deceived, and we really are not doing what we want and think we are. Instead of forgiving, we're falling short and failing miserably! So having failed to forgive, is Jesus saying G-d will withhold forgiveness from us?

So it seems to me that from a Christian point of view one has incentive to understand forgiveness as best as she can. What do you think?
I know this isn't addressed to me. However, it part of this collective thread I am participating in (not quite a Maara, but an excellent opportunity to show how Maara fits in with forgiveness.)

Now, given that:
  1. forgiveness is freeing your mind of hatred and resentment in connection to a sin against you
    AND
  2. hatred can energize the collective Maara's groupmind memetics to the point where your individual mind and reasoning can be overcome by Maara's memetics
    AND
  3. the hatred you hold onto can spread to others via the collective Maara
    THEN
  4. not forgiving (not freeing your mind of hatred) leaves you vulnerable to losing your mind to Maara.
    AND
  5. the hatred has spread to Maara.
    WHICH LEADS TO THE QUESTION
  6. Can Maara forgive? Can a collective mindform free itself of hatred? (See point #1 for what forgiveness is.)
I'll leave the remaining unasked question unasked. :)
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
But my friend, is it enough for you and I to want to want to forgive, if we are uncertain what forgiveness is? Recall the words of Jesus you earlier quoted to me:

14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew 16)

Now you and I both want to be forgiven by G-d. Yet Jesus says that if we fail to forgive, G-d won't forgive us. Let's say we don't know how to forgive, or we think we know, but we are self-deceived, and we really are not doing what we want and think we are. Instead of forgiving, we're falling short and failing miserably! So having failed to forgive, is Jesus saying G-d will withhold forgiveness from us?

So it seems to me that from a Christian point of view one has incentive to understand forgiveness as best as she can. What do you think?

You have this (quoted gospel) noted as being from Matthew 16, when it is actually Matthew 6. No big deal.

I do take issue with what this passage is conveying theologically. Thank God it is not the only divine revelation for what forgiveness is, or how it works. And thank God we all have it within us to understand how forgiveness actually works. No textual references are necessary, though admittedly it can help in understanding. IMO, this teaching does not help. It distorts how forgiveness actually works.

As I see it, and I fully realize this is a matter of debate, God is not in need of forgiveness or in forgiving. For me, the former (God being in need of forgiveness) is more arguable than the later (God need not forgive anyone). God is not sinning. Not making erroneous judgments about Creation, regardless of what some may claim (i.e. fallen children that are lost).

Therefore if Jesus did (actually) say God won't forgive us, then IMHO, Jesus was mistaken in theological understandings on this particular point. God already Loves Creation maximally, or supremely. There is no need to forgive when that is understood. The rabbit hole around this understanding runs deep, IMO but I like a good theological discussion as much as anyone and feel able to discuss it as long as may be desired. God will not be forgiving humanity anytime soon (read as ever) because from my understanding of God, there is no need. To God, we are perfection, already. Forgiveness of anyone helps make this clear, though perhaps not maximal. Not fully clear. Forgiveness of everyone, foremost your own Self, makes this abundantly clear. Even then, perhaps not maximal.

At a certain level of practical reality, facing whatever you are (or I am) up to today, it really doesn't matter how God fits in with forgiveness. If facing Heavenly Father directly, you'll know instantaneously if forgiveness to Creator is warranted and/or if somehow you are not forgiven by God. I would find the latter impossible to understand, while also understanding God how I understand God. I can imagine an unforgiving god, but not a Supreme Being.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
No. We are misunderstanding each other. When I googled it I read it with the I gone but with the word examined remaining.
The I examined life is not worth living
The examined life is not worth living
The unexamined life is not worth living
The third one is what he said. I think I do not agree with it exactly.

"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alex. Please explain why you don't agree.
 
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