Wondering About Forgiveness

[Spockrates]

Yes.

Yes. So let's consider your idea more carefully, if that's OK. Or did you first have something else to say, which you want me to consider?

 

[allfoak]

@Spockrates

There are many things in our lives that we just know how to do.
We don't think about each step we take when we walk for instance.
This is something that we just know, it has become internalized.

It is possible to also know forgiveness.
What must first be understood is that the Christian concept of the term can be and is for most, confusing.
The reason for this, is that Christianity is mostly full of opinion rather than guidance, unfortunately, it has become a world of confusion.

If you want to know something then it must become part of you, body, soul and spirit.
The first place to start for most is the body of course.
Our physical health is very important.
When we don't have good health we want to know why and our mind suffers with the body.
We know nothing of forgiveness in this state of mind.

As we begin to get to know our body we get to know ourselves, as we get to know ourselves we come to know forgiveness, we come to know forgiveness in this way because it takes forgiveness in order to get to know ourselves.
If we cannot accept ourselves for who we are, we will never be able to change anything.
There is no room for hate in the process of transformation, even if it is something within ourselves that we hate.
If we want to know forgiveness then we must get to know ourselves.
If we are willing to do what it takes to come to know ourselves, the knowledge of forgiveness has to come as a result, it is part of the process.

You see, coming to the knowledge of forgiveness is actually supposed to be a part of growing up, like learning to walk.
There should be no question about something as basic as forgiveness by the time we reach adulthood.
We should just know what it means to be forgiven.
The power to forgive sin is the power to free ourselves from bondage, which brings the power to begin to guide others to the same freedom..

When we live in the world and become part of it instead of being separate from it, it is easy to become confused about the basics of life.

 

[Spockrates]

If there is nothing else you want to add at the moment, I'd like to ask some questions about your idea that forgiving actions are not forgiving--the same questions I've asked myself. That way I can see if you come to different conclusions than me, so that I might understand why.
[emoji4]

 

[crossfire]

Yes. So let's consider your idea more carefully, if that's OK. Or did you first have something else to say, which you want me to consider?

Sure.

 

[Acim]

Not sure what you mean when you say, "partisan to their own self." Please explain. Also, I can't speak for anyone else but me, but I'd add that I'm genuinely not trying to win some kind of debate. I really want to possess the truth about what forgiveness is and why I should believe that idea about what it is, is really true.

I find it interesting that a discussion about forgiving turns into the one asking being accused of not really wanting to know. I'm sincere when I say this is not so.

I don't see you necessarily trying to win a debate as you haven't offered up a position about what forgiveness is for you (exactly) and therefore aren't engaging in counter points that amount to refutation. But I do question if you are really wanting to understand forgiveness, based on the words you use in the thread. And the repetition on saying you don't know/understand when some have provided some understanding. It's as if those are provided, and scrutinized (all fine) and then your default conclusion is, "I have no understanding of what forgiveness is." If someone questions that assertion on say p. 5 of the thread after it has been made 3 other times before that, you default to the socratic method as a certain defensive position.

All that is bold assertions, and a bit judgmental on my part, but is how I see the thread transpiring indefinitely. Myself, I don't fully understand how forgiveness works and consider it a lifelong process in fundamentally understanding it, plus in applying it as consistently as I can based on what I do currently understand. I accept my understanding may be imperfect, but don't feel like lying to myself by claiming, "I have no understanding of it at all." To me, that does come across as a rather significant deception that is like playing a game, and a style of playing that could be invoked at any time, on any topic, as if no one understands anything. More over, no one understands that no one understands.

But as much as I've changed the tone a bit, I would note that I also find humor in all this. And don't mind playing the game because it isn't vastly different to me in how all understanding allegedly works. Could write more on that, but rather focus on the humor / light hearted notation in this paragraph, then make it deeply philosophical.

So, you ask what I mean when I say "partisan to own self" and I say it means the partisan in the socratic quote is referencing Socrates. And that noticeably Socrates is highly interested in convincing his hearers of his own partisanship, that it is all about what Socrates cares to know/understand. But masking, quite cleverly, under the guise of false humility to further suggest, or continuously make note of, they aren't 'really listening.'

 

[Spockrates]

Sure.

Thank you. So let's consider this thought--the one we call forgiveness--by way of comparison. For example, murder. It begins with a thought (a murderous desire) and ends in an action (an act of killing an innocent human being). Please let me ask the question I've asked myself: Is the act of killing an innocent human being also what we call murder?

Let me know yes or no, and I'll ask a second question similar to the first.

 

[Acim]

One can have an idea what the truth might be but still not possess the knowledge that would make him sure it is in fact true. I think this is true, don't you?

How would anyone (not possessing the knowledge) know if this is in fact true?

 

[crossfire]

Thank you. So let's consider this thought--the one we call forgiveness--by way of comparison. For example, murder. It begins with a thought (a murderous desire) and ends in an action (an act of killing an innocent human being). Please let me ask the question I've asked myself: Is the act of killing an innocent human being also what we call murder?

Let me know yes or no, and I'll ask a second question similar to the first.

All killing is not necessarily murder. One example might be to pull the plug on a life support system that is only serving to prolong a person's suffering.

 

[Spockrates]

All killing is not necessarily murder. One example might be to pull the plug on a life support system that is only serving to prolong a person's suffering.

OK, is this question more precise? Is the action of killing an innocent human being who does not want to die an action we might say is murder? (It's not a trick question, just a simple one.)

 

[Spockrates]

@Spockrates

There are many things in our lives that we just know how to do.
We don't think about each step we take when we walk for instance.
This is something that we just know, it has become internalized.

It is possible to also know forgiveness.
What must first be understood is that the Christian concept of the term can be and is for most, confusing.
The reason for this, is that Christianity is mostly full of opinion rather than guidance, unfortunately, it has become a world of confusion.

If you want to know something then it must become part of you, body, soul and spirit.
The first place to start for most is the body of course.
Our physical health is very important.
When we don't have good health we want to know why and our mind suffers with the body.
We know nothing of forgiveness in this state of mind.

As we begin to get to know our body we get to know ourselves, as we get to know ourselves we come to know forgiveness, we come to know forgiveness in this way because it takes forgiveness in order to get to know ourselves.
If we cannot accept ourselves for who we are, we will never be able to change anything.
There is no room for hate in the process of transformation, even if it is something within ourselves that we hate.
If we want to know forgiveness then we must get to know ourselves.
If we are willing to do what it takes to come to know ourselves, the knowledge of forgiveness has to come as a result, it is part of the process.

You see, coming to the knowledge of forgiveness is actually supposed to be a part of growing up, like learning to walk.
There should be no question about something as basic as forgiveness by the time we reach adulthood.
We should just know what it means to be forgiven.
The power to forgive sin is the power to free ourselves from bondage, which brings the power to begin to guide others to the same freedom..

When we live in the world and become part of it instead of being separate from it, it is easy to become confused about the basics of life.

View attachment 12867

I'll be happy to reply, when I have time.

 

[allfoak]

I'll be happy to reply, when I have time.

Thank You.
I am happy to wait.

 

[crossfire]

OK, is this question more precise? Is the action of killing an innocent human being who does not want to die an action we might say is murder? (It's not a trick question, just a simple one.)

Not necessarily. You might accidentally do something that causes the death of a person who does not want to die. (Car accidents, and such.)
A person suffering on life support might not also have the mental capacity to be able to want to die, either.

 

[Spockrates]

Not necessarily. You might accidentally do something that causes the death of a person who does not want to die. (Car accidents, and such.)
A person suffering on life support might not also have the mental capacity to be able to want to die, either.

OK, how's this? Is it at all possible that the action of purposefully killing an innocent human being who does not want to die an action we might sometimes--though not always--accurately say is murder?

 

[crossfire]

OK, how's this? Is it at all possible that the action of purposefully killing an innocent human being who does not want to die an action we might sometimes--though not always--accurately say is murder?

Murder can have some overlap in this conceptualization.

 

[Spockrates]

I don't see you necessarily trying to win a debate as you haven't offered up a position about what forgiveness is for you (exactly) and therefore aren't engaging in counter points that amount to refutation. But I do question if you are really wanting to understand forgiveness, based on the words you use in the thread. And the repetition on saying you don't know/understand when some have provided some understanding. It's as if those are provided, and scrutinized (all fine) and then your default conclusion is, "I have no understanding of what forgiveness is." If someone questions that assertion on say p. 5 of the thread after it has been made 3 other times before that, you default to the socratic method as a certain defensive position.

All that is bold assertions, and a bit judgmental on my part, but is how I see the thread transpiring indefinitely. Myself, I don't fully understand how forgiveness works and consider it a lifelong process in fundamentally understanding it, plus in applying it as consistently as I can based on what I do currently understand. I accept my understanding may be imperfect, but don't feel like lying to myself by claiming, "I have no understanding of it at all." To me, that does come across as a rather significant deception that is like playing a game, and a style of playing that could be invoked at any time, on any topic, as if no one understands anything. More over, no one understands that no one understands.

But as much as I've changed the tone a bit, I would note that I also find humor in all this. And don't mind playing the game because it isn't vastly different to me in how all understanding allegedly works. Could write more on that, but rather focus on the humor / light hearted notation in this paragraph, then make it deeply philosophical.

So, you ask what I mean when I say "partisan to own self" and I say it means the partisan in the socratic quote is referencing Socrates. And that noticeably Socrates is highly interested in convincing his hearers of his own partisanship, that it is all about what Socrates cares to know/understand. But masking, quite cleverly, under the guise of false humility to further suggest, or continuously make note of, they aren't 'really listening.'

I'd like to respond to this later, when I have time.

 

[Spockrates]

Murder can have some overlap in this conceptualization.

Please explain. Do you mean murder is usually a thought, but sometimes both a thought and an action?

 

[crossfire]

OK, how's this? Is it at all possible that the action of purposefully killing an innocent human being who does not want to die an action we might sometimes--though not always--accurately say is murder?

Murder can have some overlap in this conceptualization.

Please explain.

Some of the instances that fall with in this conceptualization could be called murder, whereas other instances (such as the ones I cited, but certainly not limited by these citations) would not be considered murder.

 

[Spockrates]

Some of the instances that fall with in this conceptualization could be called murder, whereas other instances (such as the ones I cited, but certainly not limited by these citations) would not be considered murder.

Yes, I think my answer is similar to your own. Both thoughts and actions can be called murderous, though one does not necessarily have to actually kill someone to commit murder. Is this what you are thinking, too?

 

[crossfire]

Yes, I think my answer is similar to your own. Both thoughts and actions can be called murderous, though one does not necessarily have to actually kill someone to commit murder. Is this what you are thinking, too?

No. Commiting murder would, indeed, involve the act of murder. Holding onto murderous thoughts causes suffering within the mind of that being who is holding onto the hatred.

 

[Spockrates]

Or do we not agree about what murder sometimes is?