Wondering About Forgiveness

[crossfire]

I was going to say I think compassion is a cause of generosity. How about you?

Hmm, perhaps in some cases. One may give generously for other reasons, as well, such as trying to appease guilt.

 

[Spockrates]

Hmm, perhaps in some cases. One may give generously for other reasons, as well, such as trying to appease guilt.

Agreed. Compassion is a cause, but not necessarily the only one. So as hatred is a cause of murder and lust is a cause of adultery, so compassion is a cause of generosity. Where hatred, lust and compassion are the thoughts, but not the actions; and murder, adultery and generosity are the actions, but not the thoughts. I think on these premises we both agree. Don't you?

 

[Spockrates]

LOL! Fixed the typo. Lust is a cause, not a curse. [emoji4]

 

[crossfire]

Agreed. Compassion is a cause, but not necessarily the only one. So as hatred is a cause of murder and lust is a curse of adultery, so compassion is a cause of generosity. Where hatred, lust and compassion are the thoughts, but not the actions; and murder, adultery and generosity are the actions, but not the thoughts. I think on these premises we both agree. Don't you?

The thing about the immeasurables is that you really can't trace them as a cause without doubt. They don't overcome your mind in the same way that greed, hatred, and delusion can.

 

[Spockrates]

The thing about the immeasurables is that you really can't trace them as a cause without doubt. They don't overcome your mind in the same way that greed, hatred, and delusion can.

Are you saying there is nothing you are sure is ever, under any circumstances caused by compassion? Or are you instead saying compassion might sometimes be the cause of some good action, but one can't be sure that something else, such as guilt isn't the cause?

 

[crossfire]

Are you saying there is nothing you are sure is ever, under any circumstances caused by compassion? Or are you instead saying compassion might sometimes be the cause of some good action, but one can't be sure that something else, such as guilt isn't the cause?

From the objective standpoint, yes. These qualities don't overcome your mind like greed, hatred, or delusion. If you attribute these qualities to god, and assign deliberate causative properties to them (ie, they overcome a being's mind,) then you also void out free-will.

 

[Spockrates]

From the objective standpoint, yes. These qualities don't overcome your mind like greed, hatred, or delusion. If you attribute these qualities to god, and assign deliberate causative properties to them (ie, they overcome a being's mind,) then you also void out free-will.

Understood. Would it be more accurate to say we cannot understand the nature of the immeasurable compassion, but we can understand that somehow and sometimes this immeasurable is a cause--but not always the cause--of such virtuous actions as generosity, gentleness, kindness and the like? Or am I still misunderstanding?

 

[Spockrates]

Please overlook my ignorance. Maybe you are saying there are two compassions? One that is immeasurable, which is not our own nor under our control, and one that is finite, which is our own and under our control?

 

[crossfire]

Understood. Would it be more accurate to say we cannot understand the nature of the immeasurable compassion, but we can understand that somehow and sometimes this immeasurable is a cause--but not always the cause--of such virtuous actions as generosity, gentleness, kindness and the like? Or am I still misunderstanding?

Yes, they can be sources of motivation and empowerment. A being is free to plug into them when they arise. A being is also free to let them pass without plugging into them.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes, they can be sources of motivation and empowerment. A being is free to plug into them when they arise. A being is also free to let them pass without plugging into them.

Understood. Interesting that Christians say something similar, but they say this compassion they plug into or abstain from plugging into is a being they call God. They even quote one of the biblical authors who repeats the phrase, "God is love." It's a phrase I've found to be beyond comprehension and wonder why people so easily believe it and why some even say they have no trouble understanding it. I wonder if such people misunderstand what understanding is!

 

[crossfire]

Please overlook my ignorance. Maybe you are saying there are two compassions? One that is immeasurable, which is not our own nor under our control, and one that is finite, which is our own and under our control?

It's possible. Compassion is associated with skillfulness, so that would imply some modicum of control on our part. Just because our actions may be imbued with compassion does not necessarily mean there are two compassions, however.

 

[Spockrates]

What then shall we say of this compassion? Is there any good virtuous action impossible for it to cause? Or is any good thing we might do possibly caused by the compassion we plug ourselves into?

 

[Spockrates]

It's possible. Compassion is associated with skillfulness, so that would imply some modicum of control on our part. Just because our actions may be imbued with compassion does not necessarily mean there are two compassions, however.

Agreed.

 

[crossfire]

What then shall we say of this compassion? Is there any good virtuous action impossible for it to cause? Or is any good thing we might do possibly caused by the compassion we plug ourselves into?

Don't know. Like I said earlier, compassion is associated with skillfulness, so any compassionate acts might be limited by the skill of the one acting.

 

[Spockrates]

Don't know. Like I said earlier, compassion is associated with skillfulness, so any compassionate acts might be limited by the skill of the one acting.

Sorry for the delay in answering. Went offline. At least we are of the opinion compassion is a thought, not an action. What you say about compassion not necessarily being the cause of generosity rings true to me.

Reminds me of the account in the Bible where a crowd was greatly impressed by the large sums of money wealthy men were donating at a temple. Then a poor woman drops a coin into the donation pile, and no one is impressed but Jesus. He addresses the crowd saying she gave more than anyone else there, because she didn't have two coins to rub together. He went on to say we should give like the woman, not like the wealthy, who were giving to receive recognition. She gave out of gratitude to God.

So yes, I can see how generosity can caused by wrong motives, such as ironically selfishness. For one might give only to get something in return. And giving can be caused by right motives, such as gratitude, or as we previously considered, compassion.

 

[Spockrates]

In all these cases there is a thought, which causes a corresponding action. Genuinely hateful acts are caused by hate, genuinely lustful acts are caused by lust, genuinely compassion acts can be caused by compassion, though you would add we cannot be sure.

I guess I wonder why you're unsure. I mean, if I witness someone suffering, and in response I feel empathy for them and a desire to alleviate their pain, then isn't this empathetic emotion and desire to alleviate suffering a good indicator that I have genuine compassion for the sufferer?

 

[crossfire]

In all these cases there is a thought, which causes a corresponding action. Genuinely hateful acts are caused by hate, genuinely lustful acts are caused by lust, genuinely compassion acts can be caused by compassion, though you would add we cannot be sure.

I guess I wonder why you're unsure. I mean, if I witness someone suffering, and in response I feel empathy for them and a desire to alleviate their pain, then isn't this empathetic emotion and desire to alleviate suffering a good indicator that I have genuine compassion for the sufferer?

If you know yourself well enough, perhaps. If you were to speculate about anyone else other than yourself, good luck with that!

 

[Spockrates]

If you know yourself well enough, perhaps. If you were to speculate about anyone else other than yourself, good luck with that!

Agreed. So then this compassion I might recognize in myself has corresponding emotions and desires, such as an emotion of empathy and a desire to meet some need of the one with whom I empathize.

I suppose we might say the same of hatred, that is, that this thought I have also has corresponding emotions and desires. Instead of empathy I might feel animosity for the one hated. Instead of a desire to alleviate the pain, I might instead have a desire to inflict pain on the hated one.

So too with my thoughts of lust. Instead of empathy, I might feel aroused--though I suppose I might empathize with a woman being aroused by me. Also I suppose in the case of romantic involvement, I might desire to meet the sexual needs of the one for whom I lust, or in the case of rape, I might desire to inflict pain--though I'd have to say I've never desired to inflict such pain. I guess the truth might be that an act of lust might also be an act of compassion or hatred or simply pure self-gratification. So a thought of lust might sometimes act in cooperation with a thought of compassion, other times in cooperation with a thought of hate, and yet other times in isolation from either.

Do these ideas seem true to you, too?

 

[crossfire]

Agreed. So then this compassion I might recognize in myself has corresponding emotions and desires, such as an emotion of empathy and a desire to meet some need of the one with whom I empathize.

I suppose we might say the same of hatred, that is, that this thought I have also has corresponding emotions and desires. Instead of empathy I might feel animosity for the one hated. Instead of a desire to alleviate the pain, I might instead have a desire to inflict pain on the hated one.

So too with my thoughts of lust. Instead of empathy, I might feel aroused--though I suppose I might empathize with a woman being aroused by me. Also I suppose in the case of romantic involvement, I might desire to meet the sexual needs of the one for whom I lust, or in the case of rape, I might desire to inflict pain--though I'd have to say I've never desired to inflict such pain. I guess the truth might be that an act of lust might also be an act of compassion or hatred or simply pure self-gratification. So a thought of lust might sometimes act in cooperation with a thought of compassion, other times in cooperation with a thought of hate, and yet other times in isolation from either.

Do these ideas seem true to you, too?

I would say that the human mind is capable all sorts of surprising behavior. I wouldn't count any of the possible scenarios you mentioned to be improbable, especially when the human being is aware of the emotions and is in control of their faculties.

 

[Spockrates]

I would say that the human mind is capable all sorts of surprising behavior. I wouldn't count any of the possible scenarios you mentioned to be improbable, especially when the human being is aware of the emotions and is in control of their faculties.

I'd agree. What l'd like to know is if you agree with me that each of the thoughts we mention not only have corresponding actions, but also have corresponding emotions and desires.

Or do you think the truth might be that these thoughts are such emotions and desires?

For example, could it be that the hatred I have for another actually is the animosity that I feel and the desire to harm that I have?