Wondering About Forgiveness

[allfoak]

So when you say there are somethings I don't have to learn, because I just know them, and I cannot think of one such thing and ask for an example, you reply, "This is an example." Since I don't know what that means, I have to say you are mistaken. How can what I don't know be en example of something I do know?

Walking was the example.

 

[Acim]

Yes, well done! Is this merely an internal overlooking, or sometimes also an external one?

What do you mean by external overlooking?

 

[Spockrates]

What do you mean by external overlooking?

You said forgiveness is overlooking errors. I'm wondering if you mean this is something you think, or something you do. Also, did you say you were a Christian?

 

[Spockrates]

Walking was the example.

I was not born knowing how to walk, my friend. I had to learn that from my parents. Same with riding a bike and driving a car. I didn't always know how to do those, either. In fact, my mother in law doesn't know how to drive, still.

But I was born knowing how to breath, I suppose. Do you think knowing how to forgive is like breathing? Or are there other things one is born knowing how to do I have not considered, which is like forgiving?

 

[Acim]

You said forgiveness is overlooking errors. I'm wondering if you mean this is something you think, or something you do.

Still not understanding what you mean by 'something you do' when it comes to overlooking. But seeing that it is a verb, my response would be both. It is something I invoke via thought, and it carries action with it by my choosing to not look at the errors as judgments I need to retain. I overlook those judgments, and render them as holding no value for me anymore.

Also, did you say you were a Christian?

More universalist. But familiar enough with gnostic Christianity, and believe strongly in Christ theology (open to progressive revelation). Not relying on ancient doctrines (alone) to shape my knowledge/beliefs.

 

[Acim]

I was not born knowing how to walk, my friend. I had to learn that from my parents. Same with riding a bike and driving a car. I didn't always know how to do those, either. In fact, my mother in law doesn't know how to drive, still.

But I was born knowing how to breath, I suppose. Do you think knowing how to forgive is like breathing? Or are there other things one is born knowing how to do I have not considered, which is like forgiving?

I think forgiving is like breathing. I really do. I think babies forgive. I think "knowing how to" is a lifelong process. Kind of like 'knowing how to breath' when you realize that breathing can occur in different ways, and that some ways may be more conducive to a particular situation. But not really trying to conflate 'knowing how to breath' with 'knowing how to forgive.' Just saying forgiving is as simple as breathing. I earlier brought up how everyone does it with regards to themselves. Yet, it would be pretty easy to debate whether anyone does this completely with themselves. Hence, the profound part, or why it is challenging to grasp. The more I understand about forgiveness, the more I realize it literally has nothing to do with anyone else. But present me today with a person that I am having trouble relating to, and I'm pretty sure I'll understand it as I have to overlook THEIR error. Then sometime later (could be seconds, or far longer - like years), I'll realize the error started with me, and in reality, never was THEIR error.

The whole 'how to' aspects gets wildly convoluted, but is fairly interesting as well. For me, hypocrisy is a really huge factor in how forgiveness plays out. And I mean my own hypocrisy, and how judgments are actually set up in shared reality. Many times an error I perceive as attributable to another will become a trait I identify in myself. Suddenly, not treated as 'error' but part of who I am then, and at worst a teeny tiny mistake that I am very willing to overlook so I can get on with living, finding happiness, peace and knowledge.

 

[Spockrates]

Still not understanding what you mean by 'something you do' when it comes to overlooking. But seeing that it is a verb, my response would be both. It is something I invoke via thought, and it carries action with it by my choosing to not look at the errors as judgments I need to retain. I overlook those judgments, and render them as holding no value for me anymore.

More universalist. But familiar enough with gnostic Christianity, and believe strongly in Christ theology (open to progressive revelation). Not relying on ancient doctrines (alone) to shape my knowledge/beliefs.

Thanks. I'm asking not to pigeonhole you, but to see if it would be appropriate to use an example from scripture. I'm sure you are familiar with Jesus' parable of the man who was forgiven a debt by a king. The man then refused to do the same for one who owed him money and had that person thrown in jail.

So when I ask if overlooking an offense is something you think only, or also something you do, I'm asking if, for example you'd sue someone who owed you money, or call the police if someone who you invited to your home took something valuable from you. In what way would you overlook these offenses?

 

[allfoak]

@Spockrates

I am sorry but this is not going to work.
I can't be of any help to someone who is not able to pay attention to what is being posted.

 

[Spockrates]

@Spockrates

I am sorry but this is not going to work.
I can't be of any help to someone who is not able to pay attention to what is being posted.

The fault is mine for not comprehending you. I'm afraid I'm showing my ignorance. Thanks for trying to explain. Maybe someone else will help me take the baby steps necessary for me to finally understand you.

 

[Spockrates]

I would also like to add this small point: transmuting aggression/resentment/hatred into clarity of mind is certainly useful when it comes to participating in the Socratic method.

What do you mean by the words, "clarity of mind"? (Ironically the meaning you intend is unclear to me!)

 

[Spockrates]

There could be any number of reasons behind the decision to let go of anger and resentment. A shift in perspective, a desire to no longer be a victim, interest in the healthful reasons behind letting go of anger, etc. Anger will normally pass away of its own accord if you don't hold onto it. You can see this by observing any two year old throwing a fit of anger, and then suddenly getting over it. So, I would say the actual mechanism behind forgiveness is impermanence in regards to anger, hatred, and resentment.

I guess what is causing doubts is this: The virtues and vices we've considered thus far have these traits in common:

1. They have a virtuous or vice-full thought in the one thinking them.
2. These virtuous or vice-full thoughts cause some virtuous or vice-full action, which effects a person other than the one having the thought.
3. Virtuous actions benefit the one acted upon. Vice-full actions harm the one acted upon.

So in the case forgiveness, premise (2) would be untrue. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[allfoak]

The fault is mine for not comprehending you. I'm afraid I'm showing my ignorance. Thanks for trying to explain. Maybe someone else will help me take the baby steps necessary for me to finally understand you.

Playing the game of @Spockrates is what you are interested in doing.
I am sorry that i have no tolerance for your feigned desire to learn.
It is only an effort to try and make yourself look smart.
It isn't working.

Perhaps your encounter with me is the reason that you ended up on this message board.
Who else would have the insight and the courage to tell you these things other than a stranger on a message board?
If you are somehow blind to this charade of yours, you are blind no longer.
You are now at least responsible for considering if what i say has any merit.

If you do not change and become more personal in your approach, you will eventually burn out and leave.

 

[crossfire]

What do you mean by the words, "clarity of mind"? (Ironically the meaning you intend is unclear to me!)

This post has an article I wrote for my order about how to transform anger into clarity of mind.
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/why-has-lhr-hijacked-the-word-magic.177777/#post-4479425

 

[crossfire]

I guess what is causing doubts is this: The virtues and vices we've considered thus far have these traits in common:

1. They have a virtuous or vice-full thought in the one thinking them.
2. These virtuous or vice-full thoughts cause some virtuous or vice-full action, which effects a person other than the one having the thought.
3. Virtuous actions benefit the one acted upon. Vice-full actions harm the one acted upon.

So in the case forgiveness, premise (2) would be untrue. Wouldn't you agree?

Forgiveness is letting go of anger, hatred, and resentment instead of holding onto it. It affects the mind of the person who lets go of their hatred, and in turn stops spreading that particular hatred around. Forgiveness is not necessarily caused by any virtuous thought. It is simply allowing the anger/hatred/resentment to pass away instead of holding onto it.

 

[crossfire]

Forgiveness is letting go of anger, hatred, and resentment instead of holding onto it. It affects the mind of the person who lets go of their hatred, and in turn stops spreading that particular hatred around. Forgiveness is not necessarily caused by any virtuous thought. It is simply allowing the anger/hatred/resentment to pass away instead of holding onto it.

From the earlier Dhammapada quote: Dhammapada 1:3-4

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.​

 

[Spockrates]

This post has an article I wrote for my order about how to transform anger into clarity of mind.
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/why-has-lhr-hijacked-the-word-magic.177777/#post-4479425

Thanks. I'll give it a careful read and let you know what I think later.

 

[Spockrates]

From the earlier Dhammapada quote: Dhammapada 1:3-4

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.​

Yes, but I still wonder if the thoughts you describe are all forgiveness is. One reason why I wonder is the question I raised in the previous post: Why must forgiveness be the one and only virtue that causes no action to benefit others besides myself? Another reason why is this question I ask myself: Isn't a virtue something that is a selfless, rather than a selfish act? A third reason is this statement of Jesus:

Luke 6:27-31 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."

I'm thinking that perhaps there can be actions that forgiving thoughts cause, which benefit more than merely the forgiver. Not striking the one who strikes you. Not resisting the one who tries to take something from you. Doing good to those who do evil to you. Isn't possible that these selfless acts might sometimes also be acts of forgiveness?

 

[allfoak]

 

[crossfire]

Yes, but I still wonder if the thoughts you describe are all forgiveness is. One reason why I wonder is the question I raised in the previous post: Why must forgiveness be the one and only virtue that causes no action to benefit others besides myself?

Well, as I posted here, it does benefit others by not spreading the hated around:

Forgiveness is letting go of anger, hatred, and resentment instead of holding onto it. It affects the mind of the person who lets go of their hatred, and in turn stops spreading that particular hatred around. Forgiveness is not necessarily caused by any virtuous thought. It is simply allowing the anger/hatred/resentment to pass away instead of holding onto it.

Another reason why is this question I ask myself: Isn't a virtue something that is a selfless, rather than a selfish act?

Forgiveness is certainly beneficial. Does it really matter whether it is a selfish or selfless act?

A third reason is this statement of Jesus:

Luke 6:27-31 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."

I'm thinking that perhaps there can be actions that forgiving thoughts cause, which benefit more than merely the forgiver. Not striking the one who strikes you. Not resisting the one who tries to take something from you. Doing good to those who do evil to you. Isn't possible that these selfless acts might sometimes also be acts of forgiveness?

This would be an example of skillfulness (compassion.) Not propagating hatred is skillful, in that it keeps the poison of hatred from spreading and propagating, and might prompt someone else to let go of their own hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. (Dhammapada 1:5)
​

Edit to add: I'm separating forgiveness from compassion, as compassion is not a necessary component of forgiveness. One can simply let go of the hatred and let it pass to forgive--not dwelling on the wrongdoing. Compassion goes a step further to skillfully and mindfully diffuse hatred.

 

[Spockrates]

Well, as I posted here, it does benefit others by not spreading the hated around:

Forgiveness is certainly beneficial. Does it really matter whether it is a selfish or selfless act?

Good point! I'd add that if it benefits others, it's in some aspects unselfish.

This would be an example of skillfulness (compassion.) Not propagating hatred is skillful, in that it keeps the poison of hatred from spreading and propagating, and might prompt someone else to let go of their own hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal. (Dhammapada 1:5)
​

Edit to add: I'm separating forgiveness from compassion, as compassion is not a necessary component of forgiveness. One can simply let go of the hatred and let it pass to forgive--not dwelling on the wrongdoing. Compassion goes a step further to skillfully and mindfully diffuse hatred.

Did you mean not spreading around the actions hatred produces? Remember what we determined about hatred, earlier: It's a thought one has, not an action one takes. It's the cause, not the effect. So one might spread it within oneself, but it can never be spread around. What is spread around are hatred's results, which are hateful actions, such as the two we discussed--murder and rape.


Or are you saying that the hateful actions one spreads around have the effect of tempting others to have thoughts of hatred, and so hatred is spread around as a result of these hateful actions?