Wondering About Forgiveness

[crossfire]

LOL Big thing in my head; She is not a he!
There is something wrong with the Eglish language I suppose because it has no right word for she/he. Some posters have their gender posted on their personal page @Spockrates. She does.

Eh, no big deal, savagewind. I'm often mistaken for a male when it comes to online text communication.

 

[Spockrates]

Here's a post where i made a quick and simplified thumbnail sketch of Jung's model of the psyche:
Jung: A Beginner's Sketch of Jung's Model of the Psyche

Thanks, I'll check it out, later. So does one forgive herself the same way she forgives others--by removing hateful thoughts she has for herself and removing desires to do herself harm?

 

[savagewind]

Eh, no big deal, savagewind. I'm often mistaken for a male when it comes to online text communication.

Me too. It does not bother me either, but I also have corrected it to a poster calling me he. Someone said to me, "dude" and I said, "dudette". which actually is a word, I see.

 

[Spockrates]

LOL Big thing in my head; She is not a he!
There is something wrong with the Eglish language I suppose because it has no right word for she/he. Some posters have their gender posted on their personal page @Spockrates. She does.

[emoji4]

 

[crossfire]

Thanks, I'll check it out, later. So does one forgive herself the same way she forgives others--by removing hateful thoughts she has for herself and removing desires to do herself harm?

Well, first you have to recognize what you have repressed--which isn't always easy--you've repressed it because you don't want to face it. However, one can unconsciously project these repressed things onto others. (This might be seen as a cry for help from yourself to address these painful things.) You have to recognize these repressed things, bring them into consciousness, and work through them in order to heal. If you just throw a bandage on a wound to cover it up without removing the poison from it first, of course it will fester into something quite painful and poisonous.)

 

[Spockrates]

Well, first you have to recognize what you have repressed--which isn't always easy--you've repressed it because you don't want to face it. However, one can unconsciously project these repressed things onto others. (This might be seen as a cry for help from yourself to address these painful things.) You have to recognize these repressed things, bring them into consciousness, and work through them in order to heal. If you just throw a bandage on a wound to cover it up without removing the poison from it first, of course it will fester into something quite painful and poisonous.)

Agreed. So let's say someone says she hates herself and wants to kill herself. Is it reasonable to make the inference that--after helping her realize what she has repressed--she needs to forgive herself by removing her own feelings of hate for herself and removing her own desire to harm herself?

 

[crossfire]

Agreed. So let's say someone says she hates herself and wants to kill herself. Is it reasonable to make the inference that--after helping her realize what she has repressed--she needs to forgive herself by removing her feelings of hate for herself and removing her desire to harm herself?

Indeed.

 

[Spockrates]

Indeed.

And is this a compassionate thing for her to do for herself?

 

[crossfire]

And is this a compassionate thing for her to do for herself?

Yes.

 

[Spockrates]

Yes.

Then forgiveness must be a kind of compassion?

 

[crossfire]

Then forgiveness must be a kind of compassion?

Forgiveness is letting go of hatred. If you are aware of the hatred for someone else, you can just let it go, without much skill required, as it will pass away in and of itself if you don't hold onto it. Skill (compassion) is required to help someone else get rid of their hatred. Now, the repressed hatred you carry within yourself--you are not conscious of it (because you have repressed it,) and it would require some degree of skill (compassion) to bring it into consciousness so you can let it go and correct any problems it caused.

Edit to add: even it it bubbles up from the unconscious mind of its own accord, you still have to have the skill (compassion) to recognize it for what it is and deal with it so you don't project it onto someone else. (scapegoating)

 

[Spockrates]

Forgiveness is letting go of hatred. If you are aware of the hatred for someone else, you can just let it go, without much skill required, as it will pass away in and of itself if you don't hold onto it. Skill (compassion) is required to help someone else get rid of their hatred. Now, the repressed hatred you carry within yourself--you are not conscious of it (because you have repressed it,) and it would require some degree of skill (compassion) to bring it into consciousness so you can let it go and correct any problems it caused.

Makes sense to me. It is compassionate to be honest with oneself. But what about letting go of one's hatred for herself? Is this also a compassionate thing for her to do for herself?

 

[crossfire]

Makes sense to me. It is compassionate to be honest with oneself. But what about letting go of one's hatred for herself? Is this also a compassionate thing for her to do for herself?

Yes. Looking inward, examining your dark side, understanding it, and healing it is one of the most compassionate things you can do for yourself. (Irregardless of what others may think about "dabbling" in the dark side.)

 

[Spockrates]

Yes. Looking inward, examining your dark side, understanding it, and healing it is one of the most compassionate things you can do for yourself. (Irregardless of what others may think about "dabbling" in the dark side.)

Yes, and it seem to me everything we logically call a virtue is in someway compassion, either for oneself or another or both. I think it strange that earlier we said forgiveness is not an act of compassion, or perhaps I mistakenly thought we had.

 

[crossfire]

Yes, and it seem to me everything we logically call a virtue is in someway compassion, either for oneself or another or both. I think it strange that earlier we said forgiveness is not an act of compassion, or perhaps I mistakenly thought we had.

Let's look at it this way:

Does one have to be free from hatred in order to be compassionate? If so, there must be some sort of mechanism for freeing yourself from hatred (forgiveness) before one can be compassionate, no? Can compassion become poisoned by hatred, so that what we think is compassionate, really isn't? (Delusion)

 

[Spockrates]

Let's look at it this way:

Does one have to be free from hatred in order to be compassionate? If so, there must be some sort of mechanism for freeing yourself from hatred (forgiveness) before one can be compassionate, no? Can compassion become poisoned by hatred, so that what we think is compassionate, really isn't? (Delusion)

Well, I certainly want to avoid delusion, as well as self-deception in any form. Let's see what we've discovered this far, and what conclusion our discoveries lead us to:

Premise A. What we decided earlier: (1) Compassionate thoughts are compassion. (2) Compassionate words and deeds are the effects of compassion.

Premise B. My thought now: If (A) is true, then it follows that whatever is compassionate must be either (1) compassion or (2) an effect of compassion.

Premise C. When I asked you today if forgiveness is compassionate, you said it was. I agree.

Therefore:

The only conclusion I see from premises (A), (B) and (C) is this: Forgiveness is either compassion, or an action caused by compassion.

* * *

Now if this is a delusion, logic requires us to demonstrate the deception this way: Either show that one of the three premises has what logicians call FE, or factual errors. Or show that the conclusion is the result of what they call LE, or logical errors. (That is, show that the three premises actually lead to a different conclusion.)

 

[crossfire]

Well, I certainly want to avoid delusion, as well as self-deception in any form. Let's see what we've discovered this far, and what conclusion our discoveries lead us to:

Premise A. What we decided earlier: (1) Compassionate thoughts are compassion. (2) Compassionate words and deeds are the effects of compassion.

Compassion is associated with skillfulness

Premise B. My thought now: If (A) is true, then it follows that whatever is compassionate must be either (1) compassion or (2) an effect of compassion.

OK, whatever is skillful is skillful.

Premise C. When I asked you today if forgiveness is compassionate, you said it was. I agree.

Hahaha! Not all acts of forgiveness require the skillfulness of compassion.

Therefore:

The only conclusion I see from premises (A), (B) and (C) is this: Forgiveness is either compassion, or an action caused by compassion.

There's a little strawman-in-the-cherry-orchard-that-doesn't-scare-away-the-cherry-pickers problem with Premise C.

* * *

Now if this is a delusion, logic requires us to demonstrate the deception this way: Either show that one of the three premises has what logicians call FE, or factual errors. Or show that the conclusion is the result of what they call LE, or logical errors. (That is, show that the three premises actually lead to a different conclusion.)

 

[Spockrates]

Compassion is associated with skillfulness

OK, whatever is skillful is skillful.

Hahaha! Not all acts of forgiveness require the skillfulness of compassion.

There's a little strawman-in-the-cherry-orchard-that-doesn't-scare-away-the-cherry-pickers problem with Premise C.

Very good! Let's consider your logical argument and see why the problem lies with (C). But before we do, are you thinking (A) and (B) agree with what we discussed earlier and don't have any factual errors you can yet see? (I'm wondering if we can avoid repeating what we already discussed over the last few days.)

If you are still unsure whether (A) and (B) contain FE, then recall the example of generosity. We determined that one may see another who is in need and feel compassion and a desire to help the person. We agreed these feelings and desires are what the skill of compassion is, for it takes some skill to develop them. One then gives to the person in need. This act of generosity, which benefits another is the effect of the skill of compassion.

 

[crossfire]

Very good! Let's consider your logical argument and see why the problem lies with (C). But before we do, are you thinking (A) and (B) agree with what we discussed earlier and don't have any factual errors you can yet see? (I'm wondering if we can avoid repeating what we already discussed over the last few days.)

I don't know whether you agree with me that compassion is associated with skillfulness or not. If you do agree, then premise B would follow. If not, then we might not agree on whether an action is compassionate or not.

 

[Spockrates]

I don't know whether you agree with me that compassion is associated with skillfulness or not. If you do agree, then premise B would follow. If not, then we might not agree on whether an action is compassionate or not.

OK, let's make sure I agree, or see if I misunderstand. I'm thinking skill is something one is either good at doing, or not so good at doing, but such can be improved with practice.

So insofar as compassion has an emotional component we call empathy and a motivating component we call a desire to meet the needs of others, the skill of compassion, I infer must be increasing the amount or quality of such emotions and desires in various challenging circumstances.