Wondering About Forgiveness

[Spockrates]

So when Jesus talks of not resisting one who tries to harm you and giving generously to one who steals from you and doing good to those who mistreat you and even loving one's enemies, these would be extremely challenging circumstances, which require much skill to empty compassion. My gut reaction to each recommendation is to say, "Wait. What?" Or even, "Seriously Jesus?" And I wonder how anyone could be so skillful! And it makes sense to me that Ghandi said Jesus' sermon on the hill were some of the most challenging words he had ever read. For they are certainly a challenge to me if I take them seriously.

 

[crossfire]

So when Jesus talks of not resisting one who tries to harm you and giving generously to one who steals from you and doing good to those who mistreat you and even loving one's enemies, these would be extremely challenging circumstances, which require much skill to empty compassion. My gut reaction to each recommendation is to say, "Wait. What?" Or even, "Seriously Jesus?" And I wonder how anyone could be so skillful! And it makes sense to me that Ghandi said Jesus' sermon on the hill were some of the most challenging words he had ever read. For they are certainly a challenge to me if I take them seriously.

If you think about it logically, it makes sense in that it does not propagate hatred and gives the person whose mind has been overcome by hatred a chance to drop their hatred and regain their sanity. Paraphrasing what Buddha said in Dhammapada 1:5, "Hatred does not overcome hatred. Hatred is overcome by non-hate."

 

[Spockrates]

If you think about it logically, it makes sense in that it does not propagate hatred and gives the person whose mind has been overcome by hatred a chance to drop their hatred and regain their sanity. Paraphrasing what Buddha said in Dhammapada 1:5, "Hatred does not overcome hatred. Hatred is overcome by non-hate."

I like that quote. Would you say non-hate is compassion?

 

[crossfire]

I like that quote. Would you say non-hate is compassion?

The text says averena (non-hatred) instead of karuna (compassion.) This would accommodate the differences between forgiveness and compassion in stilling hatred.

 

[Spockrates]

The text says averena (non-hatred) instead of karuna (compassion.) This would accommodate the differences between forgiveness and compassion in stilling hatred.

Yes, but consider the meanings of the prefix non:

non-
nän/

prefix

1. not doing; not involved with.
"nonaggression"

2. not of the kind or class described.
"nonbeliever"

It seems to me that compassion:

• is not doing hate
• is not involved with hate
• is not a kind of hate
• is not a class of hate

So compassion can be (though it is not the only thing that can be) non-hate, I think. Don't you?

 

[Spockrates]

If you think about it logically, it makes sense in that it does not propagate hatred and gives the person whose mind has been overcome by hatred a chance to drop their hatred and regain their sanity. Paraphrasing what Buddha said in Dhammapada 1:5, "Hatred does not overcome hatred. Hatred is overcome by non-hate."

But then, think of the one who gave birth to the idea: Wasn't Buddha compassionate? Or was he something else? I mean, there is something else which is non-hate, for it is neither hate nor compassion. This something is apathy. Was Buddha teaching you and I to be apathetic? Did he believe apathy or compassion more likely to overcome hatred?

 

[Spockrates]

I know little of Buddha and have much to learn from you. But the ideas to which he gave birth give me a desire to know him more. Here is one of his children who gives me some joy to see:

"Conquer the angry one by not getting angry; conquer the wicked by goodness; conquer the stingy by generosity, and the liar by speaking the truth."

[Verse 223]
Gautama Buddha, The Dhammapada

* * *

His words remind me of those of another:

"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge...Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

Paul (Romans 12)

 

[crossfire]

Yes, but consider the meanings of the prefix non:

non-
nän/

prefix

1. not doing; not involved with.
"nonaggression"

2. not of the kind or class described.
"nonbeliever"

It seems to me that compassion:

• is not doing hate
• is not involved with hate
• is not a kind of hate
• is not a class of hate

So compassion can be (though it is not the only thing that can be) non-hate, I think. Don't you?

Compassion would certainly qualify as non-hate. Friendliness would also qualify as non-hate. Mindfulness would also qualify as non-hate. Detachment would also be non-hate. (The Pali word averena does imply "friendliness" as in "not hostile.")

 

[Spockrates]

Compassion would certainly qualify as non-hate. Friendliness would also qualify as non-hate. Mindfulness would also qualify as non-hate. Detachment would also be non-hate. (The Pali word averena does imply "friendliness" as in "not hostile.")

Agreed.

 

[crossfire]

I know little of Buddha and have much to learn from you. But the ideas to which he gave birth give me a desire to know him more. Here is one of his children who gives me some joy to see:

Feel free to ask questions in the Buddhism DIR.

"Conquer the angry one by not getting angry; conquer the wicked by goodness; conquer the stingy by generosity, and the liar by speaking the truth."

[Verse 223]
Gautama Buddha, The Dhammapada

Compare the larger context of this quote to Dhammapada 1:1-5 that I've been using as an example:

221. One should give up anger, renounce pride, and overcome all fetters. Suffering never befalls him who clings not to mind and body and is detached.

222. He who checks rising anger as a charioteer checks a rolling chariot, him I call a true charioteer. Others only hold the reins.

223. Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth.

*****

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.​

 

[crossfire]

But then, think of the one who gave birth to the idea: Wasn't Buddha compassionate? Or was he something else? I mean, there is something else which is non-hate, for it is neither hate nor compassion. This something is apathy. Was Buddha teaching you and I to be apathetic? Did he believe apathy or compassion more likely to overcome hatred?

Buddha was compassionate. Some beings might be holding onto so much hatred that they have to learn to let the hatred go before compassion can shine through.

 

[crossfire]

Buddha was compassionate. Some beings might be holding onto so much hatred that they have to learn to let the hatred go before compassion can shine through.

The transforming anger into mental clarity might also be a helpful tool in developing the skillfulness associated with compassion, as well.

 

[Spockrates]

Buddha was compassionate. Some beings might be holding onto so much hatred that they have to learn to let the hatred go before compassion can shine through.

It seems logical to me that Buddha advocated compassion, rather than apathy. Rather than merely an absence of hate, which is apathy, he desired that we have the opposite of hate, which is compassion. Or did he not want us to become like himself?

 

[crossfire]

It seems logical to me that Buddha advocated compassion, rather than apathy. Rather than merely an absence of hate, which is apathy, he desired that we have the opposite of hate, which is compassion. Or did he not want us to become like himself?

Everyone has their own unique sets of psychological hang-ups to overcome, so each person will need a different technique to overcome their hang ups. Hatred and the other poisons are painful to work through in practice. Those who have a lot of poisons in their psyche will have painful practice. Those who don't have a lot of poisons in their psyche will have pleasant practice. Since everyone is different, it is up to each person to discern what their psychological hang-ups/stresses are, and to develop a practice that will lead to the ending of these stresses. There are many different approaches available to people, but Buddha told people to look for the ones that teach an ending of or lack of the three poisons of greed hatred, and delusion, and reject the doctrines that preach greed, hatred, and delusion, no matter how much pretzel logic they might employ to convince you. Once the poisons are cleared, then the four immeasurables I mentioned earlier will develop, including compassion. Buddha was joyful when people succeeded at overcoming their hang-ups.

{Sorry for only linking to these three suttas in the sentences describing them. We are wandering away from the topic of forgiveness, and I don't want look like I'm trying to draw attention away from that topic.}

 

[Spockrates]

And is [forgiving herself] a compassionate thing for her to do for herself?

Yes.

So the path we've taken in our journey today was prompted by your answer to my question. Is it an act of compassion to forgive oneself?

Your answer was yes, so the inference I drew was that forgiveness is a compassionate act. For if the answer to the question is yes, then forgiving is an action caused by compassion, similar to the way giving to those in need is an act of compassion. In the case of forgiving, one might be said to be giving to oneself. This idea, which I called premise (C) you said was incorrect, and suggested that I was committing the informal logical fallacy of constructing a scarecrow and knocking it down, instead of addressing the true argument.

Now that we are further down the path from where we were earlier, we have determined that rather than an effect if compassion, forgiving is an effect of apathy. For it is caused by non-hate, rather than compassion, and having a lack of both hate and compassion is what apathy is.

So it seems the answer you would now give to the question,

"Is forgiving oneself a compassionate thing for one to do for oneself?"

would be,

"No, forgiving is not a compassionate thing to do, for it has nothing to do with compassion. Forgiving is an apathetic thing one does for herself, for a lack of hate does not compassion make!"

Am I correct in thinking your answer to the question should now be no?

 

[Spockrates]

But then again, I still have my doubts. For I just read these words of Buddha:

"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule."

Gautama Buddha (The Dhammapada: The Sayings of the Buddha)

Since the eternal rule is that love and only love causes hatred to cease, and since forgiveness is the skill of ceasing hatred, then shouldn't we infer that forgiveness is an act of compassion?

 

[savagewind]

But then again, I still have my doubts. For I just read these words of Buddha:

"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule."

Gautama Buddha (The Dhammapada: The Sayings of the Buddha)

Since the eternal rule is that love and only love causes hatred to cease, and since forgiveness is the process of ceasing hatred, then shouldn't we infer that forgiveness is an act of compassion?

I think it is.

 

[Spockrates]

I think it is.

Yes, I think you might be right. At the very least, it seems, it's an act of loving oneself. For seeing how harmful hate is to me and how much pain it brings me, I might desire to alleviate such suffering. So out of a desire to help myself, I might do whatever it takes to stop feeling anger, resentment or hate. To do otherwise is to desire to continue to suffer, which is hating oneself, and to hate oneself is illogical in the extreme!

 

[Acim]

Since the eternal rule is that love and only love causes hatred to cease, and since forgiveness is the skill of ceasing hatred, then shouldn't we infer that forgiveness is an act of compassion?

I kind of think of it the other way around. That compassion is an act of forgiveness.

 

[Spockrates]

I kind of think of it the other way around. That compassion is an act of forgiveness.

Well, Crossfire and I were thinking that compassion is what one feels (empathy, for example) and what one desires (to reduce suffering, for example). Acting on these feelings and desires are what we call the effects of, or acts of compassion.

So looking at compassion that way (as a feeling and desire) I'm now thinking (and I'm not at all sure Crossfire agrees) that forgiving is acting on my feelings of concern for myself and my desire to alleviate the suffering my own hatred and anger causes me.

But if you still don't agree, please tell me why. I'm unsure how compassion could be an act of forgiveness.

[emoji4]