Wondering About the Book of Mormon

[Spockrates]

Hi. Just wondering about the Book of Mormon. I hope it's not offensive to ask the question. How can I know it's true historical fact and not fiction?

 

[silvermoon383]

Best way is to follow Moroni's Promise at the end: read, study, then pray with full intent on following whatever answer you receive. Many others will want to bring in archeology, anthropology, and some of the other sciences to convince you with away, but we have a very incomplete picture of the ancient Americas from both sources.

 

[Spockrates]

Best way is to follow Moroni's Promise at the end: read, study, then pray with full intent on following whatever answer you receive. Many others will want to bring in archeology, anthropology, and some of the other sciences to convince you with away, but we have a very incomplete picture of the ancient Americas from both sources.

Thanks, Silvermoon. If it is not to personal a thing to ask, please tell me about answer you received. What was communicated and how was it communicated.

 

[Spockrates]

Hmmm. I guess it's either a boring question or there aren't many Latter Day Saints, here. Anyone know of a good Mormon website where people may go to learn more?

 

[silvermoon383]

There're a few of us here, but with the holiday and the fact that some of us in the western part of the country might still be in church we're just not chatty right now.

As for my experience when asking, it's a little hard to explain, (emotional things aren't my forte). All I can say is that after reading a few times and asking in prayer I just knew that it as true.

 

[Spockrates]

There're a few of us here, but with the holiday and the fact that some of us in the western part of the country might still be in church we're just not chatty right now.

As for my experience when asking, it's a little hard to explain, (emotional things aren't my forte). All I can say is that after reading a few times and asking in prayer I just knew that it as true.

Fascinating! I don't know if I've ever just known, although I have experienced emotions such as an epiphany and déjà vu.

It sounds like it was an emotional feeling that convinced you. Will you try to remember what it felt like and describe the feeling for me? Was it an emotion of certainty like an epiphany, or an emotion of less certainty like a déjà vu?

Epiphany (feeling) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déjà_vu

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, Spockrates. I haven't responded because Silvermoon pretty much said anything I might have said. I can add a couple of thoughts, though, which you may find worthwhile. I'd have to say that a person comes to know that The Book of Mormon is true in exactly the same way he comes to know The Bible is true. I'm assuming you are pretty confident that the Bible is true, even if you interpret some parts of it as allegorical or symbolic. You read stories about events which took place in Jerusalem or on the Sea of Galilee, and you believe they really took place because you know that even today, there really is a city called Jerusalem and there really is a lake called the Sea of Galilee. But there's a lot more that you simply have to accept on faith. As a Christian, you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to redeem you of your sins, and that He was resurrected three days later. This is something that no human being can prove to you. Non-Christians will tell you that the whole thing was just made up, but you know better because the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit has witnessed to you that it's true.

The actual passage in The Book of Mormon that Silvermoon mentioned is Moroni 10:4. It states, "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

The passage is near the end of the book, and it presumes a couple of things about the reader. It presumes that he has a desire to know the truth and has put forth some effort to find it. It also presumes that the reader is receptive to the idea that this might actually be true! It says that the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of it to anyone who meets these criteria. As to how it feels... that's hard to say because it's different for every person. I would say that for many, it's not so much an epiphany (as "a sudden and striking realization") but more of a calm assurance that grows over time. People criticise Mormons for relying on their feelings. They point out that the heart cannot be trusted in matters of faith and is likely to deceive. There are verses in the Bible that support this position. However, if you will recall, when Jesus Christ asked Peter and the other Apostles who they believed He was, they gave varying answers. Peter alone recognized that He was "the Christ, the Son of the Living God." And Jesus responded to him by saying, "Blessed art thou... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." In other words, no human being had convinced Peter of what he knew to be true. Our Father in Heaven had revealed it to him." The only way we can come to know spiritual truths is by God revealing them to us through the Holy Ghost. And that's how one comes to know that the Book of Mormon is what it purports to be.

 

[Spockrates]

Hi, Spockrates. I haven't responded because Silvermoon pretty much said anything I might have said. I can add a couple of thoughts, though, which you may find worthwhile. I'd have to say that a person comes to know that The Book of Mormon is true in exactly the same way he comes to know The Bible is true. I'm assuming you are pretty confident that the Bible is true, even if you interpret some parts of it as allegorical or symbolic. You read stories about events which took place in Jerusalem or on the Sea of Galilee, and you believe they really took place because you know that even today, there really is a city called Jerusalem and there really is a lake called the Sea of Galilee. But there's a lot more that you simply have to accept on faith. As a Christian, you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to redeem you of your sins, and that He was resurrected three days later. This is something that no human being can prove to you. Non-Christians will tell you that the whole thing was just made up, but you know better because the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit has witnessed to you that it's true.

Thanks Katzpur. I think perhaps you and I have different reasons why we believe the New Testament. Please tell me: Do you think it unlikely someone would die for what he knows is a lie?

The actual passage in The Book of Mormon that Silvermoon mentioned is Moroni 10:4. It states, "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost."

The passage is near the end of the book, and it presumes a couple of things about the reader. It presumes that he has a desire to know the truth

I do.

and has put forth some effort to find it.

I have.

It also presumes that the reader is receptive to the idea that this might actually be true!

I am.

It says that the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of it to anyone who meets these criteria. As to how it feels... that's hard to say because it's different for every person. I would say that for many, it's not so much an epiphany (as "a sudden and striking realization") but more of a calm assurance that grows over time.

I think that terms such as calm and assurance are relative, so to speak. So are you saying one knows the Book of Mormon is true if she feels calmer about the idea of it being true than she did when she first began her investigation? Are you saying one knows the Book of Mormon is true if she feels less doubt about the idea of it being true than she did when she first began her study and prayer?

People criticise Mormons for relying on their feelings. They point out that the heart cannot be trusted in matters of faith and is likely to deceive. There are verses in the Bible that support this position. However, if you will recall, when Jesus Christ asked Peter and the other Apostles who they believed He was, they gave varying answers. Peter alone recognized that He was "the Christ, the Son of the Living God." And Jesus responded to him by saying, "Blessed art thou... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." In other words, no human being had convinced Peter of what he knew to be true. Our Father in Heaven had revealed it to him." The only way we can come to know spiritual truths is by God revealing them to us through the Holy Ghost. And that's how one comes to know that the Book of Mormon is what it purports to be.

Yes, I see what you mean. The Holy Ghost did reveal the truth to him. I wonder in what way this truth was revealed. Was it in words communicated to him, such as, "Jesus is the Son of the living God"? Or was it in feelings that communicated no words? What do you think?

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks Katzpur. I think perhaps you and I have different reasons why we believe the New Testament.

I'm curious to know why you believe the New Testament. Would you mind telling me.

Please tell me: Do you think it unlikely someone would die for what he knows is a lie?

That's hard to say. I suppose people have done so, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

I think that terms such as calm and assurance are relative, so to speak. So are you saying one knows the Book of Mormon is true if she feels calmer about the idea of it being true than she did when she first began her investigation? Are you saying one knows the Book of Mormon is true if she feels less doubt about the idea of it being true than she did when she first began her study and prayer?

Yes, the words I used are definitely relative, and that's why I'm not really particularly comfortable in telling people what they should expect the experience to be like for them. Also, being raised in the Church, I'm sure that my experience would likely be different from someone a non-Mormon background who reads the Book of Mormon. About all I can say is that I think that for most people who read the book for the first time, they might pick up on answers to questions they've always had that maybe the Bible doesn't give specific answers to. When they read something, it immediately resonates with them as making complete sense. When they ask God if what the book said on that topic is really true, their feeling that it is grows even stronger.

In the Book of Mormon, Alma 32 (specifically verses 26-43 addresses this concept more eloquently than I possibly could. That's a link I provided. You might want to read it and then tell me if it makes things any clearer.

Yes, I see what you mean. The Holy Ghost did reveal the truth to him. I wonder in what way this truth was revealed. Was it in words communicated to him, such as, "Jesus is the Son of the living God"? Or was it in feelings that communicated no words? What do you think?

I think it would be very unusual for someone to actually hear a voice, but not so unusual to sense the words being spoken.

 

[Katzpur]

Hmmm. I guess it's either a boring question or there aren't many Latter Day Saints, here. Anyone know of a good Mormon website where people may go to learn more?

Here is the Church's official website for just that purpose. And then, of course, there is also this forum and us!

 

[Spockrates]

I'm curious to know why you believe the New Testament. Would you mind telling me. That's hard to say. I suppose people have done so, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

I think it's more a matter of believing the ones who wrote the New Testament. Were they reliable witnesses of the events of Jesus' last days on earth? My thought is that they were. Please let me briefly explain why:

Peter, Paul and other authors of the New Testament were martyred for their beliefs. Many Christians lost their businesses, their homes, their property and were put to death for their beliefs. If the Apostles knew Christ never died and rose from the dead, then what reason would they have for risking their lives to say he did? I cannot fathom any, other than the possibility they were all insane. Yet, this is highly improbable, since their writ tongs are nothing of the sort madmen would pen. So I guess that's what I find most convincing.

But please tell me what Mormons believe about the New Testament. Do you believe Jesus died and rose from the dead, or does your faith teach a different story?

Yes, the words I used are definitely relative, and that's why I'm not really particularly comfortable in telling people what they should expect the experience to be like for them.

Acknowledged. That's why I'm not asking what I will experience. I'm asking what you and other Latter Day Saints have experienced.

Also, being raised in the Church, I'm sure that my experience would likely be different from someone a non-Mormon background who reads the Book of Mormon. About all I can say is that I think that for most people who read the book for the first time, they might pick up on answers to questions they've always had that maybe the Bible doesn't give specific answers to. When they read something, it immediately resonates with them as making complete sense. When they ask God if what the book said on that topic is really true, their feeling that it is grows even stronger.

So since it is a relative calmness, does that mean the calm you yourself feel is calmer than what you felt when you first considered the reliability of the Book of Mormon? Since it is a relative assurance, does that mean there was once a time when you were relatively unsure?

In the Book of Mormon, Alma 32 (specifically verses 26-43 addresses this concept more eloquently than I possibly could. That's a link I provided. You might want to read it and then tell me if it makes things any clearer.
I think it would be very unusual for someone to actually hear a voice, but not so unusual to sense the words being spoken.

Thanks for the link. I'll give it a careful and open minded read and let you know what I think. Would you care to help clarify things if I have questions about what I'm reading?

 

[Katzpur]

I think it's more a matter of believing the ones who wrote the New Testament. Were they reliable witnesses of the events of Jesus' last days on earth? My thought is that they were. Please let me briefly explain why:

Peter, Paul and other authors of the New Testament were martyred for their beliefs. Many Christians lost their businesses, their homes, their property and were put to death for their beliefs. If the Apostles knew Christ never died and rose from the dead, then what reason would they have for risking their lives to say he did? I cannot fathom any, other than the possibility they were all insane. Yet, this is highly improbable, since their writ tongs are nothing of the sort madmen would pen. So I guess that's what I find most convincing.

I see what you mean, and I agree totally.

But please tell me what Mormons believe about the New Testament. Do you believe Jesus died and rose from the dead, or does your faith teach a different story?

We absolutely do believe that Jesus Christ was the Savior of the world, and that He was chosen from before the world even existed to be the Lamb who would be sacrificed for our sins. Of all the things He accomplished as part of His mission here on earth, His atoning sacrifice was by far the most important. We believe that He actually took upon himself our sins and, even though He lived a perfect life and was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, willingly paid the price for our guilt by dying on the cross so that we might be able to be reconciled to God. And yes, we believe He rose from the dead and was resurrected in an immortal body that would never again be subject to disease, injury or death. Because He conquered death, He made it possible for us to live again and spend eternity in the presence of God and those we have loved on earth. I actually can't think of a single solitary thing the Bible says about Jesus Christ that we don't believe.

Acknowledged. That's why I'm not asking what I will experience. I'm asking what you and other Latter Day Saints have experienced.

Well, I'll do my best to explain. You see, having been raised Mormon, I learned about the things the Book of Mormon teaches before I actually read the book. I read it from cover to cover for the first time as a teenager, and as a typical teenager, I had far more "important" things on my mind than scripture study -- you know, things like clothes and boys. So my initial reading of the Book of Mormon was not momentous. It's been in later years (and I'm 66 now) that I've actually found meaning and beauty in it. For example...

Someone on another forum I post on started a thread in which his OP asked why God would have revealed himself only to a small nomadic people of the Middle East. He asked why, if there was an omnipotent God who created a vast universe, wouldn't we "find individuals scattered across the breadth of mankind who would, at the very least, receive notice that god existed in some concurrent manner. A prophet in Asia, another in Sub-Saharan Africa, and another in the Americas all receiving the same word of god, the same laws, the same divine revelations all at the same time. But we don't. [The scriptures] even acknowledge the existence of god's other children, children who for centuries would remain totally ignorant of the existence of their divinely created kin. I find that curious."

So, here's what the Book of Mormon has to say on that subject:

"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another?Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written."

I had read these verses before on numerous occasions, but when he asked that question, they immediately came to mind. The Book of Mormon is an account of one such group of people. It's their religious and secular history covering a period of about 1000 years, near the end of which we have a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus Christ to these people, in which He taught them the same gospel He had taught shortly before in the Middle East. When I read those verses, I think, "Well of course! Why would He have ignored the entire population of the Western Hemisphere when He was fully capable of appearing to them personally and teaching them His gospel?" With the Book of Mormon, we have an additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.

I'll read other parts and they'll jump out at me as perfectly addressing topics other Christians have posed online in forums such as this one. I'll stop and realize what the Book of Mormon teaches about a topic that the Bible may merely allude to in passing. It just makes me grateful for the additional knowledge that I have as a Mormon. Of course not all of this knowledge comes from the Book of Mormon, either. We have two other volumes of scripture (The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price) that fill in a lot of the puzzle pieces on topics that Christians have been trying to understand for centuries. In the Pearl of Great Price, for instance, we have an account of the Fall of Adam that is very similar -- but more complete -- than the one in Genesis. It helps me to be able to understand the reason why Adam's and Eve's transgression ultimately served a noble purpose.

So since it is a relative calmness, does that mean the calm you yourself feel is calmer than what you felt when you first considered the reliability of the Book of Mormon? Since it is a relative assurance, does that mean there was once a time when you were relatively unsure?

Perhaps the word "calmness" was not the best one I could have used. Like I said before, I basically knew what the Book of Mormon was about and what it was going to teach before I read it. In rereading parts of it that I find assurance beyond what the Bible already gives me that I am a child of God and that His Plan of Salvation was designed to bring me happiness.

Thanks for the link. I'll give it a careful and open minded read and let you know what I think. Would you care to help clarify things if I have questions about what I'm reading?

By all means, ask any questions you may have.

 

[Spockrates]

I see what you mean, and I agree totally.

So it seems our reason for believing the New Testament is different from your reason for believing the Book of Mormon. I'm not saying one reason is more reliable than the other, just saying they are different.

We absolutely do believe that Jesus Christ was the Savior of the world, and that He was chosen from before the world even existed to be the Lamb who would be sacrificed for our sins. Of all the things He accomplished as part of His mission here on earth, His atoning sacrifice was by far the most important. We believe that He actually took upon himself our sins and, even though He lived a perfect life and was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, willingly paid the price for our guilt by dying on the cross so that we might be able to be reconciled to God. And yes, we believe He rose from the dead and was resurrected in an immortal body that would never again be subject to disease, injury or death. Because He conquered death, He made it possible for us to live again and spend eternity in the presence of God and those we have loved on earth. I actually can't think of a single solitary thing the Bible says about Jesus Christ that we don't believe.

Hard to believe some other Christians say Mormons are not Christian!

Well, I'll do my best to explain. You see, having been raised Mormon, I learned about the things the Book of Mormon teaches before I actually read the book. I read it from cover to cover for the first time as a teenager, and as a typical teenager, I had far more "important" things on my mind than scripture study -- you know, things like clothes and boys. So my initial reading of the Book of Mormon was not momentous. It's been in later years (and I'm 66 now) that I've actually found meaning and beauty in it. For example...

Someone on another forum I post on started a thread in which his OP asked why God would have revealed himself only to a small nomadic people of the Middle East. He asked why, if there was an omnipotent God who created a vast universe, wouldn't we "find individuals scattered across the breadth of mankind who would, at the very least, receive notice that god existed in some concurrent manner. A prophet in Asia, another in Sub-Saharan Africa, and another in the Americas all receiving the same word of god, the same laws, the same divine revelations all at the same time. But we don't. [The scriptures] even acknowledge the existence of god's other children, children who for centuries would remain totally ignorant of the existence of their divinely created kin. I find that curious."

So, here's what the Book of Mormon has to say on that subject:

"Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another?Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written."

I had read these verses before on numerous occasions, but when he asked that question, they immediately came to mind. The Book of Mormon is an account of one such group of people. It's their religious and secular history covering a period of about 1000 years, near the end of which we have a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus Christ to these people, in which He taught them the same gospel He had taught shortly before in the Middle East. When I read those verses, I think, "Well of course! Why would He have ignored the entire population of the Western Hemisphere when He was fully capable of appearing to them personally and teaching them His gospel?" With the Book of Mormon, we have an additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.

I'll read other parts and they'll jump out at me as perfectly addressing topics other Christians have posed online in forums such as this one. I'll stop and realize what the Book of Mormon teaches about a topic that the Bible may merely allude to in passing. It just makes me grateful for the additional knowledge that I have as a Mormon. Of course not all of this knowledge comes from the Book of Mormon, either. We have two other volumes of scripture (The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price) that fill in a lot of the puzzle pieces on topics that Christians have been trying to understand for centuries. In the Pearl of Great Price, for instance, we have an account of the Fall of Adam that is very similar -- but more complete -- than the one in Genesis. It helps me to be able to understand the reason why Adam's and Eve's transgression ultimately served a noble purpose.

I think I might enjoy reading all three. But perhaps I'll start with the Book of Mormon.

Perhaps the word "calmness" was not the best one I could have used. Like I said before, I basically knew what the Book of Mormon was about and what it was going to teach before I read it. In rereading parts of it that I find assurance beyond what the Bible already gives me that I am a child of God and that His Plan of Salvation was designed to bring me happiness.

So you were not relatively calmer, or less anxious about the Book of Mormon after praying and reading it. You were neither anxious nor calm.

But you were relatively more assured, or less unsure--less doubtful. So please tell me: What was the cause of your doubts? Why were you unsure the Book of Mormon was true before you read it?

By all means, ask any questions you may have.

Thanks.

 

[Katzpur]

So it seems our reason for believing the New Testament is different from your reason for believing the Book of Mormon. I'm not saying one reason is more reliable than the other, just saying they are different.

Actually, I don't just have one reason for believing either of them. I believe both of them for a number of reasons. When it gets right down to it, there are millions of people who don't even believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. They believe the entire Bible was just made up. The bottom line is that I believe both books through faith -- the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hard to believe some other Christians say Mormons are not Christian!

I'm tempted to comment, but what I had to say probably wouldn't be very nice.

I think I might enjoy reading all three. But perhaps I'll start with the Book of Mormon.

I'd definitely read the Pearl of Great Price second. It's super short, easy and interesting. I'll tell you one thing right now. The Book of Mormon has some parts that are absolutely beautiful and spiritual, and some parts that are, quite honestly (IMO), pretty boring (but then so does the Bible). Mosiah is one of my favorite parts, as is 3 Nephi (near the end of the book). Parts of Alma are great, other parts I have a hard time getting through. 2 Nephi quotes from Isaiah quite a bit and it can be kind of hard reading if you find Isaiah to be difficult to understand. Be sure to read the forward or cover page and also the testimonies of the three witnesses and the eight witnesses.

So you were not relatively calmer, or less anxious about the Book of Mormon after praying and reading it. You were neither anxious nor calm.

Yeah, I'd say neither anxious nor calm really.

But you were relatively more assured, or less unsure--less doubtful. So please tell me: What was the cause of your doubts? Why were you unsure the Book of Mormon was true before you read it?

I can't say I really had any real doubts before I read it, because I was already familiar with what it was all about. I just don't think you can really say that you believe something to be either true or false until you've at least given it a chance. I read it, assuming that it was true, and I found nothing in it to make me think otherwise. And as I already said, there are things in it that add meaning and clarity to what the Bible teaches, but there is nothing in it which contradicts the Bible. I'll say one thing about the Book of Mormon: It is absolutely Christ-focused. In its 520 pages, Jesus is mentioned by name 188 times. He is referred to as the Christ 398 times, as the Son of God 51 times, as the Redeemer 41 times, as the Messiah 32 times and as the Savior 12 times. He is mentioned for the first time on page 1 and for the last time on page 520. It's pretty hard to ignore that the book is (as the cover page states) "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations."

I hope you enjoy reading it, and please feel free to ask questions as you go.

 

[Spockrates]

Actually, I don't just have one reason for believing either of them. I believe both of them for a number of reasons.

I should very much like to hear your many reasons for believing the Book of Mormon.

When it gets right down to it, there are millions of people who don't even believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. They believe the entire Bible was just made up. The bottom line is that I believe both books through faith -- the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I suppose the number of atheists who don't believe he ever existed are relatively few. One reason: I've spent a good deal of time on a few atheists forums. Rather than deny he existed, they deny the events about his life, which are recorded in the Bible are true. Jesus was a real man, but just a man, they tell me.

I'm tempted to comment, but what I had to say probably wouldn't be very nice.

I'd definitely read the Pearl of Great Price second. It's super short, easy and interesting. I'll tell you one thing right now. The Book of Mormon has some parts that are absolutely beautiful and spiritual, and some parts that are, quite honestly (IMO), pretty boring (but then so does the Bible). Mosiah is one of my favorite parts, as is 3 Nephi (near the end of the book). Parts of Alma are great, other parts I have a hard time getting through. 2 Nephi quotes from Isaiah quite a bit and it can be kind of hard reading if you find Isaiah to be difficult to understand. Be sure to read the forward or cover page and also the testimonies of the three witnesses and the eight witnesses.

Same with the Bible. I've read the entire Old Testament through three times, I think. Parts of it were a bit monotonous. After reading through Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy the third time and wondering why it seemed to take so long, the thought came to me: Maybe it was to impress upon me how long the Jewish people procrastinated before obeying God's command to stop wandering in the desert.

Parts of it I've read through many more times, such as Psalms, which has been a great help to me in times of great stress. I've read the books of the New Testament though many more times. The Gospel of John is my favorite, since it paints a more intimate description of what Jesus said to his inner circle of friends.

So are there any books of the Book of Mormon that are like the Gospel of John? Are there any that reveal things Jesus said to those closest to him?

Yeah, I'd say neither anxious nor calm really.

I can't say I really had any real doubts before I read it, because I was already familiar with what it was all about. I just don't think you can really say that you believe something to be either true or false until you've at least given it a chance. I read it, assuming that it was true, and I found nothing in it to make me think otherwise. And as I already said, there are things in it that add meaning and clarity to what the Bible teaches, but there is nothing in it which contradicts the Bible. I'll say one thing about the Book of Mormon: It is absolutely Christ-focused. In its 520 pages, Jesus is mentioned by name 188 times. He is referred to as the Christ 398 times, as the Son of God 51 times, as the Redeemer 41 times, as the Messiah 32 times and as the Savior 12 times. He is mentioned for the first time on page 1 and for the last time on page 520. It's pretty hard to ignore that the book is (as the cover page states) "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations."

So did you go from being somewhat assured to being much more assured? Also what other reasons do you have for being assured in addition to the Book of Mormon providing answers to questions, which the Bible does not fully provide?

I hope you enjoy reading it, and please feel free to ask questions as you go.

OK, I have some questions. Please let me ask two for now:

1. What does Alma mean by saying faith is dormant? (v 34)
2. Since Alma says faith is not perfect knowledge, then what exactly is perfect knowledge--is it maybe wisdom, or perhaps experience, or possibly emotion? (vv 21, 26, 29, 34, 35)

Don't worry if you don't know. I'm just wondering out loud and not expecting you to have all the answers.

 

[Spockrates]

Here is the Church's official website for just that purpose. And then, of course, there is also this forum and us!

Tried the forum there. Would not let me join, because I used a yahoo.com email address. I guess there must be an LDS email provider, which is required. Thanks for the suggestion, though.​

 

[Katzpur]

Tried the forum there. Would not let me join, because I used a yahoo.com email address. I guess there must be an LDS email provider, which is required. Thanks for the suggestion, though.​

That doesn't make sense at all. That website is specifically for people who want to ask questions about Mormonism. I've never heard of that happening to anybody before. I'm assuming you were able to at least get onto the website. At what point did you run into problems? Maybe I can find out something for you.

 

[Spockrates]

That doesn't make sense at all. That website is specifically for people who want to ask questions about Mormonism. I've never heard of that happening to anybody before. I'm assuming you were able to at least get onto the website. At what point did you run into problems? Maybe I can find out something for you.

If you want, please try going here and entering a yahoo.com email. For religion, just put Christisn. See if you get the same result.

Registration Form - LDS.net

 

[Spockrates]

The error displayed: "The email address you used is not accepted by this community. Please select a different email address."

I double checked that it is a valid yahoo.com email address.

 

[Norman]

Hi. Just wondering about the Book of Mormon. I hope it's not offensive to ask the question. How can I know it's true historical fact and not fiction?

Norman: Hi Spockrates, There is a promise in the Book of Mormon to know if it is true or not. The Holy Ghost is the third person In the Godhead, He does not have a physical body.

Moroni 10:2 And I seal‍ up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful‍ the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder‍ it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask‍ God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith‍ in Christ, he will manifest‍ the truth‍ of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know‍ the truth‍ of all things

I read the book thirty years ago and as I prayed and fasted to know if it was true, the Holy Ghost testified to my spirit that the book is what it claims to be. The book of Mormon truly is another Testament of Jesus Christ. My experience with the Holy Ghost was an instant moment that filled my whole being and I knew that it was of God. Sometimes it is hard to describe a spiritual experience with the Holy Ghost. Here are some examples that I have posted on how others experienced the Holy Ghost.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses‍ and all the prophets, he expounded‍ unto them in all the scriptures‍ the things concerning himself. 28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29 But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it,‍ and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn‍ within us, while he talked‍ with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (These men said when a resurrected Jesus taught them out of the scriptures and talked with them. These men described the spiritual experience they had by saying “did not our hearts burn within us.” This makes sense to me because the Holy Ghost can physically leave an impression on the spirit of another person.)

(David, feeling the Holy Ghost very strong, that his heart, (or bosom) burned within him, as he prayed to the Lord for help to control his vulgar language) Ps. 39:3 My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue,

(The Prophet Jeremiah while sitting in a pit, murmuring before the Lord in frustration, and anger, after murmuring and saying the Lord deceived him as a prophet to an apostate Israel, and that everyone mocks him; bares his testimony he received by the Holy Ghost, and describes this physical feeling, that it was so strong, that he felt like burning of fire right through to his bones, wow, what a testimony, what a prophet of God, what a man of God.) Jeremiah 20:9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay

3 Nephi. 11:3 and it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that It did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Matt. 12:31 wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (The reason for this is taught by Paul. (Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness‍ with our spirit that we are the children‍ of God. (There is no greater witness than the Holy Ghost and thus cannot be denied once a person receives that witness.)

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

Luke 4:1 AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, (Even Jesus himself had the Holy Ghost with him)

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(Paul teaches the Corinthian saints that he teaches not with man’s intellect, but by the holy ghost he teaches, notice how he says, teaching by the spirit, you compare, “or learn” other spiritual things) 1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

(Stephen while dying after being stoned sees a vision by the Holy Ghost, and looks up to heaven and sees two separate Gods) Acts 7: 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Even Jesus Christ needed the Holy Ghost) .Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

(Gospel taken to Gentiles. Peter receives a vision to take the gospel to the Gentiles, as he is teaching a gentile audience, the gentiles feel the spirit) Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

(Paul teaches the Hebrews, that many gifts (talents) are given us by the Holy Ghost) Hebrews 2: 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

(Paul teaches the Hebrews that the Holy Ghost is a spirit of witness to us of the teachings of Jesus Christ) Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

(Peter, as he is bearing witness of the Old Testament manuscripts and their prophets, says, these men spake by the holy ghost, so, how else can we understand prophecy of old (holy writ) except by the same holy ghost?) 2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(A resurrected Jesus Christ is teaching here, that after he leaves, the Holy Ghost will replace him and will testify of him.) John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

(Jude teaches us, that we can build our faith, by praying, and asking for the Holy Ghost to be with us, to strengthen us, and help us make our faith stronger, that faith is a process.) Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

(Paul while teaching some Jews, quotes Isaiah 6:9 to these group of Jews, and says, that the Holy Ghost spoke through the Old Testament prophet Isaiah) Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

(Paul teaches to the already members of the church in Rome, by this letter, he wrote from Corinth, while on his third journey, that there is a sanctifying process the holy ghost takes you through) Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

(Paul teaches the Corinthian saints that he teaches not with man’s intellect, but by the Holy Ghost he teaches, notice how he says, teaching by the spirit, you compare, “or learn” other spiritual things) 1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

In Summary:

Isaiah taught that learning the scriptures is a process not a moment.

Isaiah 28:9 ¶Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isaiah taught that learning spiritual things are done step by step and not all at once. This is why we continue to read the scriptures, pray, fast and ponder what we are reading. Every time I read the scriptures I always learn something new. I have been reading the scriptures since I was a child and I always get something new out of them.)

We learn that the Holy Ghost represents himself in many ways.

He manifests truth
He shows men things to come (Future Tense)
He will comfort you
He will teach you all things
He will bring all things to remembrance
A person can be sanctified by the Holy Ghost, which in itself is a process.
A person can receive a vision by the Holy Ghost
A person can have a dream by the Holy Ghost
A person can have the power of discernment by the Holy Ghost
A person can only know that Jesus is the Christ accept by the Holy Ghost
Each of us has talents and gifts from the Holy Ghost
Sign and Wonders comes from the Holy Ghost
Miracles come from the Holy Ghost
A man can prophecy by the Holy Ghost
A man can receive revelation by the Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost bear’s witness to our spirit
The Holy Ghost can physically bear witness in our hearts or bosom by fire
The Holy Ghost can bear witness as a still small voice
The Holy Ghost can bring on feelings of peace
The Holy Ghost can bring on feelings of being calm
The Holy Ghost can bring feelings of serenity

I hope this helps, sorry it was so long.