dynavert2012
Active Member
:yes: hope they will find their path correctly
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won't the rich enter the heaven?
- Thread starter dynavert2012
- Start date
I'm being extremely harsh. Jesus is much more easy going and says things like "I'd tell you more, but you couldn't handle it right now." If Jesus went to every church and forced them to accept this point about money right now, today, it would destroy most of them. The truth is that truth has to be tempered with grace, because people can't handle it. The ladies would worry and the men would get frustrated or vice verse. Many treasurers would succumb to temptation to run away with all the funds. No one could accept it, yet it is the ideal. Its just too much to deal with for the time being.dynavert2012 said:
I Corinthians 3:2 " I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready," (Paul writing)
Matthew 23:4 "Matthew 23:4 They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders;..." (Jesus)
Matthew 11:30 "...My burden is light..." (Jesus)
Acts 15:28 "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:"
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RMOACP
It's All Relative
That verse to me speaks more about traits that rich people tend to possess than it does about the money itself. I'm inclined to believe that those who remain as they were when they didn't have money, when they had nothing, would not be scrutinized the same as those who completely changed and adopted certain vices.
The rich can enter the kingdom of heaven, but they first have to let go of their earthly wealth and possessions.
Just like the camel has to stoop low and leave all of the things he has to carry to enter into his home (the eye of the needle), the rich man also has to stoop low and humble himself and leave all of his earthly belongings to enter into heaven.
The wealth we acquire here is something that we won't be bringing to heaven. The wealth we acquire should be used to be generous and a blessing to God's people.
Just like the camel has to stoop low and leave all of the things he has to carry to enter into his home (the eye of the needle), the rich man also has to stoop low and humble himself and leave all of his earthly belongings to enter into heaven.
The wealth we acquire here is something that we won't be bringing to heaven. The wealth we acquire should be used to be generous and a blessing to God's people.
Well, according to the book of Acts, the early Christians lived as communists. They turned all their possessions over to the church to be distributed among all the believers. Going by that, they took Jesus' teachings on money and the rich at face value. Sad that modern Christians twist themselves into pretzels to try to explain it away or simply ignore it. They're all brainwashed by capitalism and don't even realize it. The only Christians I think actually live up to the name are Christian anarchists who live in communes.
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John Martin
Active Member
Yes, the rich cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. It is easier for a camel to through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The question is: who is a rich person? and why he cannot enter the kingdom?
God has created human beings in his/her image and likeness. Symbolically it is said that God breathed his breath into the nostrils and human beings became living beings. The breath of God is the spirit of God, it is the ray of the light present in us. It means that there is something in each one of us which does not belong to the process of physical evolution( our bodies belong to the process of physical evolution from the big bang) and psychological evolution( our ego and all the things that are connected to the ego belong to the psychological evolution)but directly connected to the eternity or divine.There is something in us that does belong to the process of time but eternity. It was there before the big bang began and before the religions appeared. Whatever comes from God will certainly return to God. Whatever comes from God is already saved and is already in heaven, heaven being a level of consciousness and not a place or location.
Rich persons are those who forget their divine ray and identify with the body and with all the material possessions that give security to the body; with the ego and all the qualities or possessions that are connected with the ego and give security to the ego, even with the spiritual ego( the man who prayed in the temple said: I fast twice a week, I give arms to the poor and I am not like the tax collector etc.had a spiritual ego).
These rich persons cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The rich young man was rich in his physical body and all the riches that protected his body; he was rich spiritually in the sense that he followed all the commandments, he had spiritual ego,but had forgotten his real nature or not aware of the image and likeness of God,the divine light within him. He was in rich in ego and poor in the true nature. Our image and likeness of God does not become bigger by our actions not become smaller by our non actions. It is the pure gift and grace of God. It reflects the divine light as the Moon reflects the Sun.
Jesus asked the rich young man to renounce the security in the ego consciousness and find security in the true self or true nature
Ego is not created by God. It belongs to the evolutionary process of the human consciousness. It has a beginning and has an end. It is like a cloud that flies only in certain height. It cannot go very far. It will evaporate and disappear. Ego cannot enter into God. It may be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than the ego or a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
A person who is aware of his7her true nature or image and likeness of God can possess his/her body and all the material riches, can have the ego and all its qualities but he/she uses them to be at the service of the true self. The true self is the master and the ego and the body are its vehicles. These possessions cannot make him rich. He or she remains poor spiritually. Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Only when we are willing to renounce our ego consciousness then we discover that our true self is already in heaven. It does not need to enter.
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Prophet
breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Same argument doesn't really apply. The churches back then were underground, places were "none of you are to be called Rabbi", non-hierarchal. There, in those brotherhoods, they were teaching, and in that context I can certainly appreciate the pros of feeding people with "milk, not solid food".
However, in places men love to be called Rabbi, Father, Pastor, etc., a place that is much more befitting the state of the Christian church today, Jesus used a different approach that was much harsher than even you.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets. 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
To summarize in today's context: The Christian church today honors Jesus with its lips but its heart is far from him. So far from him, in fact, that were he reborn and covertly placed into the Christian church under a new name, upon announcing his new ideas he would be crucified all over again.
@ John Martin's comment:
Sure, the rich man going through the eye of the needle, that could refer to someone who is 'Rich in spirit'. I could imagine that working somehow, since the beatitudes of Jesus teach that the 'Poor in spirit' inherit the kingdom of God. Then instead of being about money the story of the rich man and the eye of the needle would be against those who try to tell others their own wisdom and judge the relationship that others have with God. For example it would be 'Rich in spirit' for me to pity you over your opinion on some doctrine and try to improve you by putting my way of thinking into you presuming that my way is better. This would tend to create hostility between us and raise the hairs on our necks. Instead I should be a peacemaker and be someone who craves to be improved rather than seeing myself as having something that will improve you. I should see you as the better candidate and try to learn from you. Then I am poor in spirit.
Sure, the rich man going through the eye of the needle, that could refer to someone who is 'Rich in spirit'. I could imagine that working somehow, since the beatitudes of Jesus teach that the 'Poor in spirit' inherit the kingdom of God. Then instead of being about money the story of the rich man and the eye of the needle would be against those who try to tell others their own wisdom and judge the relationship that others have with God. For example it would be 'Rich in spirit' for me to pity you over your opinion on some doctrine and try to improve you by putting my way of thinking into you presuming that my way is better. This would tend to create hostility between us and raise the hairs on our necks. Instead I should be a peacemaker and be someone who craves to be improved rather than seeing myself as having something that will improve you. I should see you as the better candidate and try to learn from you. Then I am poor in spirit.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Its nothing to do with being rich, its the love of money and not god that keeps you out of heaven, even he poor who are proud of being poor will be kept out of heaven.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
Jesus cursed the rich.
“Cursed are you who are rich, for you have already had all the comfort you will get!"
That they already had their reward and would face suffering in the afterlife.
"But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember when you were alive you had the good things in life, but bad things happened to Lazarus. Now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish"
And said you cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time. For those who think they can tend to serve there own material gain over God.
"No servant is able to serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
“Cursed are you who are rich, for you have already had all the comfort you will get!"
That they already had their reward and would face suffering in the afterlife.
"But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember when you were alive you had the good things in life, but bad things happened to Lazarus. Now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish"
And said you cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time. For those who think they can tend to serve there own material gain over God.
"No servant is able to serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
John Martin
Active Member
Searching for Truth and sharing what one discovers will not be considered Rich in the Spirit. Your comment does not come someone who want to search for Truth. It is because of the searching mind that the physicists have grown from atoms to Higgs Boson. The person who proposed Higgs Boson was not creating hostility between the physicists. We need an open mind and open heart to search for the Truth. Sharing with others is a learning process and not a teaching process. Christ shared the truth he discovered. He disturbed people. He created conflict. He died for it. Was he 'Rich in the Spirit' and does not enter into the kingdom of God? If people do not want to share and discuss,why is the necessity of Religious Education Forum? Jesus said, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of God. Truth is not something we know once for all. We need to have it day by day. Give us today our daily bread. This food is not limited to material food but also spiritual food. Your comment does not manifest hunger for Truth.
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I'm not sure we are understanding each other correctly John. Do you really think I'm opposed to people learning and sharing?
kashmir
Well-Known Member
Thats not what Jesus is saying plus you have to read the king james version.
bibles that reword scripture tend to give conflicting meanings.
In other parts(mark or luke) the man asked Jesus if the gift Jesus he was offering could be bought, that is why Jesus said that its easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle, than rich man to enter heaven
Jesus is saying three things here, money means nothing once one dies, and while one is alive, if he worships it, he can not worship god two, as one can not serve two masters and if one puts others first by sharing what they have as this man did not, then God will see that.
One can die rich and still get into heaven, after all you are leaving the money to someone, someone will get it
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Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe there is a baggage check. If the person is hanging onto his bagage too tightly the angels won't gather the person. That covers the Physical Kingdom.
I believe the spiritual kingdom works this way. A person who is focused on worldly things isn't entering into spiritual things.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the principle is tha same in any age.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I have not founda ny verse that says that.
That conclusion does not flow from the premises.
I don't believe they ever said that it was a principle. It is simply what they did.
I believe this is a blanket statement that avoids the fact that the Christian Church is very much involved in community assistance.
I have neveer been in a church that taught this nor have I ever heard it preached by a Christian.
I believe this is not a rational assessment.
Muffled, thanks for your reply. Since that post I've made a further post attempting to clarify. here. You are right about the logical structure of the argument. Many overlook rather than openly deny that Jesus spoke against the love of money and also what he says about giving to whomever asks. It is a particularly difficult command to follow. The state of the union is that there is a long way to go before it is like what Jesus envisioned. The idea of giving and sharing things in common so far has not happened, even if there are community efforts to do things for the poor. It has been attempted but so far has not been sustained.
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