Woo, Pseudoscience and the limits of relativism

[Jainarayan]

I certainly have experience of a chiropractor who tried to convince my mother that "adjustments" would cure her vertigo problem and headaches (all it did was cost money and infuriated my father, who only saw my mother not get better).

Actually it can alleviate it in some cases. Vertigo and cervicogenic headaches are often caused by cervical nerves being compressed by bulging or herniated discs, arthritis, calcifications. Not all treatments are effective for all people, but it doesn't mean they don't work at all and should be dismissed.

 

[Jainarayan]

I've had homeopathy and acupuncture in the past, no benefit from either I'm afraid. Perhaps I didn't believe strongly enough that would benefit me?

Nah, acupuncture doesn't work for everyone. It didn't work for me but my friend swears by it. People swear by epidurals, but they don't work for me either. However, the aforementioned chiropractic adjustments on my neck do work for me.

 

[Jainarayan]

Real medicine can be duplicateable (eg. if someone gave me a strong sedative and someone else a strong sedative, we would both become sleepy).

El wrongo. I take percocet 10/325 (prescription from orthopedic surgeon, folks ) for my back, and what it does is amp me up. Percocet is oxycodone Whaddya know... oxycodone gets me wired! It knocks other people out cold. I said earlier that epidurals do not work for me but they work for other people.

 

[Heloise]

While I can't be certain about what you mean by experience, doesn't all human knowledge ultimately come from sensing and experiencing the world around us? Furthermore, doesn't the vast majority of our day to day living entail experience? I guess I'm very perplexed by the dismissive attitude you seem to have regarding day-to-day life. I also wonder about things like job applications... that thing they look for called "experience." Yet all the experiences we have are poor ways of knowing things? Oh my... it makes me wonder how I got my current job, if this thing called "experience" is so poor!

Flippancy aside, no, you don't have to "experience" it. Read about it and listen to people who practice, just like you possibly do for any other subject. Just like it's a poor idea to look to understand the sciences from non-scientists, it's a poor idea to look to understand something like astrology from someone who isn't an astrologer. One should seek to make one's informed opinions based on the informed experts - the people who are in the field. Yes?

I suppose I have a question for you, in relation to the rest of what you posted. Would you consider yourself an adherent of scientism? That is to say, you believe that Science!™ is the only appropriate way for humans to obtain knowledge and that everything else is BS?

The problem with consulting as astrology as an expert in astrology is that astrology does not change, even in the face of contrary evidence.

As it is stated here:
http://www.helsinki.fi/teoreettinen...hagard_-_Why_Astrology_Is_A_Pseudoscience.pdf

"A theory or discipline which purports to be scientific is pseudoscientific if and only if:
[228] it has been less progressive than alternative theories over a long period of time, and faces many unsolved problems; but
1. the community of practitioners makes little attempt to develop the theory towards solutions of the problems, shows no concern for attempts to evaluate the theory in relation to others, and is selective in considering confirmations and disconfirmations."

There is been virtually no substantial progress in development of astrology since the 2nd century for this reason. Alchemy (also a pseudoscience) is in a similar position. On the other hand, biology, physics and chemistry have progressed by leaps and bounds in the past 100 years. The scientific method will never say that something is "true" but will state that something is the likeliest explanation of a phenomenon. If contrary evidence, the scientific community won't have any problem entertaining other explanations. Through the process of peer review, scientists will deliberately open their findings and methodology to critique from other scientists

https://id%3D61019696009%3Bname%3Dscience-junkie Science rarely uses the term “proven”, because the scientific method is not a system to make a definitive answer on any question–scientists always leave open the possibility of an alternative hypothesis that can be tested. If the alternate hypothesis can be supported through experimentation, then it can replace the original one. When an alternative medicine or junk science supporter states “it has been proven,” ask where is the evidence. What is more troubling is that someone who believes in these therapies cannot imagine that they don’t work, what is called falsification, which is a hallmark of good science. Whenever I hear that a scientist say, “we were wrong, it doesn’t work,” my retort is “excellent, good science.”

Also, no medical scientist claims that one solution with broadly "heal" all physical problems. The biological mechanisms which cause tuberculosis and autoimmune diseases are totally different. This means they require different medicines with different biochemical actions.

Our knowledge of reality are based on our experiences. Intelligent people have learned that some experiences are more reliable than others. I heard voices in my house the other day. There could be one of three explanations:
1) Someone was in my house (not true)
2) There were ghosts in my house (impossible)
3) Something else...Turns out the voices were only coming from one side of my house and my house was shoddily built, so I could actually hear people talking in the house next door, despite the fact that we don't share a wall. I went outside and could hear them speaking inside their house, only louder

However, if I had a strong confirmation bias towards ghosts, I would probably never have investigated specifically where the noises were coming from and would never have found their actual source.

Experiences that can be substantiated by external facts are the most reliable knowledge we have to work with. Our perceptions can never be 100% perfect, but scientific methodology takes pains to reduce the potential for bias and error.

I certainly believe in science. Because if science is disproven, it changes. When it doesn't work, scientists look to find out why.

An expert who won't change his opinions in the face of contrary evidence is not worth listening to.

 

[Quintessence]

The problem with consulting as astrology as an expert in astrology is that astrology does not change, even in the face of contrary evidence.

As has been mentioned already, astrology is poorly characterized as a pseudoscience because it does not posit itself as a science. What you're doing here is holding astrology - which is more like a form of art or storytelling - solely to the standards of the sciences. That simply doesn't make sense. That you think "evidence" is of central importance to astrology pretty much confirms for me that you know very little about what you're criticizing. I would suggest reading the OP of this thread, as it covers a couple common misconceptions about divination (including but not limited to astrology). I'd focus on the first one I talk about there, because it sounds like you're fixating overmuch on whether or not astrology is "factually accurate" when that's not necessarily the point for both practitioners and consumers of the art.

Also, no medical scientist claims that one solution with broadly "heal" all physical problems.

Neither will any reputable "alternative" medicine practitioner. The ones who do this are scam artists and frauds, but they hardly constitute the entire community of practitioners. Hell, we just recently had a thread around here where someone asked about some "magical" curing water that cost a small fortune, and I flat out told them the person was a scam artist and that no respectable Witch would make such claims.

Pardon, I'm going to be blunt for a moment here. Please do us a favor and make an honest effort to learn about these things by asking questions. What you're doing here reminds me of all those threads in the Evolution Vs. Creationism subforum, where an evolution denialist is presented with opportunities to educate themselves, but they don't bother to take the time and effort. I can't say I blame them, given the considerable time and effort involved in learning something, but if one isn't going to bother, it seems best to not speak upon that which one knows nothing about.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

While I can't be certain about what you mean by experience, doesn't all human knowledge ultimately come from sensing and experiencing the world around us? Furthermore, doesn't the vast majority of our day to day living entail experience? I guess I'm very perplexed by the dismissive attitude you seem to have regarding day-to-day life. I also wonder about things like job applications... that thing they look for called "experience." Yet all the experiences we have are poor ways of knowing things? Oh my... it makes me wonder how I got my current job, if this thing called "experience" is so poor!

Flippancy aside, no, you don't have to "experience" it. Read about it and listen to people who practice, just like you possibly do for any other subject. Just like it's a poor idea to look to understand the sciences from non-scientists, it's a poor idea to look to understand something like astrology from someone who isn't an astrologer. One should seek to make one's informed opinions based on the informed experts - the people who are in the field. Yes?

I suppose I have a question for you, in relation to the rest of what you posted. Would you consider yourself an adherent of scientism? That is to say, you believe that Science!™ is the only appropriate way for humans to obtain knowledge and that everything else is BS?

Yeah you do kind of need experience to get how this stuff works. Working with psychics that actually are psychic are more likely to convince you. Getting healed by a crystal is good proof as well. Of course some things are not so easily proven. How can a camera record a blessing or protection spell anyway. Or telepathy or communication with deities?

 

[Quintessence]

Yeah you do kind of need experience to get how this stuff works. Working with psychics that actually are psychic are more likely to convince you. Getting healed by a crystal is good proof as well. Of course some things are not so easily proven. How can a camera record a blessing or protection spell anyway. Or telepathy or communication with deities?

What I meant there, TWTP, is that you don't have to be a practitioner of anything to develop an understanding of it. You can study it as an academic would study any other subject - by immersing in the literature of the relevant experts and authorities, being an observer at community events, doing interviews of people who do practice, etc. Do what any good anthropologist would do when studying a foreign culture, I guess; get to know it on its own terms and suspend judgments. In no way do I practice or experience astrology, but I studied enough of it to change my opinion about it a few years back (the previous opinion basically being the same "this is total BS" sentiment expressed by our OP).

 

[George-ananda]

Energy healing is neither. It is inherently fraudulent because it states that something that does not actually exist is being transferred.

That it doesn't exist is just one opinion. Qui, Prana whatever you call it is held to be real and part of a subtle realm not detectable by physical instruments. This realm is in a dimensional and vibrational level not detectable by physical instruments. Many hold that a human is not just physical matter and his subtle layers are influenced by these energies. I happen to believe that myself.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Well, I can't really question or examine your personal experiences, but can you at least admit to the possibility that there may be other explanations for these experiences? People believe they have communicated with all sorts of things, from aliens to pixies. Are you at the very least willing to accept that it is possible that your experience may not actually be an example of communication with plants, but a result of your personal psychological state? I myself have had direct personal experience of Wiccan magick (or, what I was told was Wiccan magick, at least), and yet I have since concluded that my experience was entirely concocted by my own mind in a desperate desire to believe what I was experiencing was magick.


Personally, I simply refuse to believe that a genuine psychic would make their services privately available before they demonstrated their ability to the scientific community. If their abilities could actually be demonstrated under reasonable experimental conditions, it would change mankind's entire perception of how the mind works and lead to an entirely new kind of research and, at the very least, a Nobel prize.


It's one thing to claim real psychics exist who would only demonstrate their abilities privately rather than demonstrate them to the world at large, but to claim that crystals exist with inexplicable healing powers and that these crystals would not be made available to use in hospitals around the world and save countless lives is simply absurd. Genuinely ask what this would mean if it were actually true. What do you honestly think medical science could do with a breakthrough like that?


Sadly, without further evidence, I simply do not believe your experiences are reliable. I'm sorry.

Dude. Do you know what goes behind the scenes?

There is so much we have yet to fully understand. One thing is certain. Not everything's as it seems. Everything emits a frequency. Crystals are not the exception. Crystals and plants have health and magical uses. Just because you see some fake psychics and magicians does not mean all of them are fake. You haven't looked in the right areas. With crystals, of course they aren't going to make you heal like Wolverine. But some DO have healing benefits as well as others, depending on which crystal you use. I already know this because I have used it.

For you to say that hospitals would have used them if such things were true...of course hospitals aren't going to use crystals or other healing plants. Lots of hospitals are not in the business of helping but rather they make money and push forth other medicine that's actually more harmful when you would have been better off with the alternative. Why do you think people get sick more from the legal drugs than they do the illegal drugs. Sick people is big business in hospitals. How can a hospital make money if a bunch of people not only use a cheaper alternative, but a better one as well? They wouldn't.

This shouldn't be news to people. Lots of secrets are being deliberately kept from people and things are being covered up. Why do you think they made hemp illegal? For fun? Because they really thought it was harmful? They knew full well it was good. Of course they are going to make one of the most useful plants in the world illegal. Because of how beneficial it really is considering what you can make out of it, it is a food source, helps reduce tumors and brings the appetite back to a sick person ect. Not to mention the numerous magical uses for this plant. Anyone who saw the propaganda against hemp knows what I'm talking about and anyone that does their research knows full well that such things do not occur when people have hemp. But they made a lie and lots of people had this sheep mentality and ate it up. Because the government has never lied before right? Except the time when numerous governments have lied and betrayed their own people.

They do the same thing to so called "pseudosciences" to discourage people from learning the real secrets. Or if someone claims they practice it, people claim they are crazy and no one should listen to them. Again to discourage people from learning the truth. I guess you could make excuses and say "Well that was just a crazy coincidence." You can argue that every time I talked to a psychic who accurately predicted what would happen is all just crazy coincidences. There's so many times you can say that before you start realizing that something is going on. Before you start to wake up. How can scientists honestly disbelieve such abilities when the very scientists they idolize practiced the same thing? No one has answered that.

If I told you I was abducted by aliens and had no evidence does that mean it didn't happen? Don't be so quick to dismiss such stories. Some are doing it for attention but some are real, whether people want to admit it or not. If you told me aliens weren't real even though I was abducted, am I going to believe you? Of course not, because after I've already seen the truth I'm not going to be swayed so easily. I have seen it and felt it. But people are so quick to say "You're crazy" whenever something is not status quo or the norm, they say it because it goes beyond their usual perception of reality and they call you crazy because they don't know what else to call you.

Some crazies are jumbled up but some "crazy" people are right. Even the greatest scientists were called crazy before.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Dude. Do you know what goes behind the scenes?

There is so much we have yet to fully understand. One thing is certain. Not everything's as it seems. Everything emits a frequency. Crystals are not the exception. Crystals and plants have health and magical uses. Just because you see some fake psychics and magicians does not mean all of them are fake. You haven't looked in the right areas. With crystals, of course they aren't going to make you heal like Wolverine. But some DO have healing benefits as well as others, depending on which crystal you use. I already know this because I have used it.

Then why has this never been demonstrated?

For you to say that hospitals would have used them if such things were true...of course hospitals aren't going to use crystals or other healing plants. Lots of hospitals are not in the business of helping but rather they make money and push forth other medicine that's actually more harmful when you would have been better off with the alternative.

Why, exactly? I live in the UK where we have nationalized healthcare, and I have personally worked in a children's hospital. What you are saying is not just baseless, but outright dangerous. Are you honestly saying that organizations that spend millions on developing better treatments for patients wouldn't be all over something with seemingly miraculous healing powers?

Why do you think people get sick more from the legal drugs than they do the illegal drugs.

They don't. Do you have any facts to back that up?

Sick people is big business in hospitals. How can a hospital make money if a bunch of people not only use a cheaper alternative, but a better one as well? They wouldn't.

Again, I live in the UK where healthcare in nationalized. They DON'T make any money. And I want you to seriously consider what you are suggesting here. You are suggesting that there is a global conspiracy of people who are actively suppressing the truth about seemingly miraculous healing powers that would potentially render the billions we spend, and the thousands of hours we waste, on developing medical treatments for no reason whatsoever. Do you honestly think that's a reasonable belief?

The rest of your post is just unsupported, conspiratorial rambling. I won't dignify it with a reasoned response, and instead I will just ask you to carefully think about what I have said again and seriously consider whether or not it is more reasonable to believe in a vast, global conspiracy who can somehow control the total sum of any facts getting out via any means possible for no reason whatsoever, or to believe that maybe crystals don't have magical healing powers.

[EDIT]Actually, scratch that, there IS something worth responding to, and it leads to perhaps the most important question I can ask:

Some crazies are jumbled up but some "crazy" people are right.

The question is: How can you tell the difference?

 

[Heloise]

As has been mentioned already, astrology is poorly characterized as a pseudoscience because it does not posit itself as a science. What you're doing here is holding astrology - which is more like a form of art or storytelling - solely to the standards of the sciences. That simply doesn't make sense. That you think "evidence" is of central importance to astrology pretty much confirms for me that you know very little about what you're criticizing. I would suggest reading the OP of this thread, as it covers a couple common misconceptions about divination (including but not limited to astrology). I'd focus on the first one I talk about there, because it sounds like you're fixating overmuch on whether or not astrology is "factually accurate" when that's not necessarily the point for both practitioners and consumers of the art.


Pardon, I'm going to be blunt for a moment here. Please do us a favor and make an honest effort to learn about these things by asking questions. What you're doing here reminds me of all those threads in the Evolution Vs. Creationism subforum, where an evolution denialist is presented with opportunities to educate themselves, but they don't bother to take the time and effort. I can't say I blame them, given the considerable time and effort involved in learning something, but if one isn't going to bother, it seems best to not speak upon that which one knows nothing about.

So, what you're saying is that astrology is really just a creative, thinking tool which doesn't need to be supernatural? This would mean if I switched around the meanings assigned to the different signs of the Zodiac, it wouldn't matter. It would all be just a game.

So, yes I ask a question to my Wiccan friend: "How do you know your spell worked?" He replied that knew that he would get a good and he got a good job. I would argue that he is bright, qualified, nice, well-educated, interviews well - and he applied to dozens of jobs before he got this one. He still thinks the spell is what did it, not him.

An anthropologist would study a culture, where, say, people believe the sun went underground overnight (this is a common belief in many cultures. Everyone in this culture believes this. The anthropologist however, can easily conclude through her knowledge of astronomy and physics that the Earth and all the other planets rotate around the sun. Just because these people all perceive the sun going underground overnight doesn't mean it actually does.

I would argue that arguing against evolution is about as rational as arguing for magical woo. Nothing in biology, geology etc. makes any sense without evolution. Similarly, nothing in psychics, biology or chemistry makes sense if crystals can channel extra-dimensional magic healing energy which nobody can detect and has do discernable effects beyond a placebo.

If any of this was real, wouldn't scientists be talking to Reiki and Crystal Believer and publishing "This is real!" papers in peer reviewed Academic journals? Because it would turn the scientific community on its head, if anyone could come up with solid evidence that any of this was real.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Then why has this never been demonstrated?


Why, exactly? I live in the UK where we have nationalized healthcare, and I have personally worked in a children's hospital. What you are saying is not just baseless, but outright dangerous. Are you honestly saying that organizations that spend millions on developing better treatments for patients wouldn't be all over something with seemingly miraculous healing powers?


They don't. Do you have any facts to back that up?


Again, I live in the UK where healthcare in nationalized. They DON'T make any money. And I want you to seriously consider what you are suggesting here. You are suggesting that there is a global conspiracy of people who are actively suppressing the truth about seemingly miraculous healing powers that would potentially render the billions we spend, and the thousands of hours we waste, on developing medical treatments for no reason whatsoever. Do you honestly think that's a reasonable belief?

The rest of your post is just unsupported, conspiratorial rambling. I won't dignify it with a reasoned response, and instead I will just ask you to carefully think about what I have said again and seriously consider whether or not it is more reasonable to believe in a vast, global conspiracy who can somehow control the total sum of any facts getting out via any means possible for no reason whatsoever, or to believe that maybe crystals don't have magical healing powers.

[EDIT]Actually, scratch that, there IS something worth responding to, and it leads to perhaps the most important question I can ask:


The question is: How can you tell the difference?

You ask how can one tell the difference. I say you can't, not entirely. But if you put two and two together, it all starts to fall in place. Like scattered puzzle pieces. Each piece is important and if you put it together, you will see the entire picture.

As far as real psychics go, no, they are not 100% accurate. But then, nobody is anyway. Even the most highly skilled psychic can be wrong with a few details.

If you want links that actually go into detail of some hospitals trying to make money instead of helping, I can as well as the statistics where people die more from the legal drugs than the illegal ones. After all, just because it isn't all over the news doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It's difficult tell whether one is making it up or not. Although when you hear case after case, whether it's alien abductions, psychics, crystals, magic, ect. You start to wonder if some are real. But the thing is, some are real. Some have demonstrated it but with crystal healing you can't record it on a camera. Someone doesn't get healed instantly, but depending on the crystal and user, different affects change.

You hear stories of aliens sasqauatch or some mythological creature. Are all those people who said those things crazy. Every single one of them? No, not all.

You are wanting evidence but you really want proof which is not the same thing. There's a difference between the two. Magic isn't something new and it doesn't make much sense for people to practice a craft that's been practiced for thousands of years, if they didn't get anything out of it. You just didn't spot it.

 

[Heloise]

From Pagan Grove

How to Identify Pseudoscience

Psychologists Rodney Schmaltz and Scott Lilienfeld have identified seven clear signs of pseudoscience:

1. The use of psychobabble – words that sound scientific and professional but are used incorrectly, or in a misleading manner.
2. A substantial reliance on unreliable or unscientific evidence.
3. Extraordinary claims in the absence of extraordinary evidence.
4. Claims which cannot be proven false such as unverifiable personal gnosis (UPG)
5. Claims that counter established scientific facts.
6. Absence of adequate peer review.
7. Claims that are repeated despite being refuted.

http://www.pagangrove.com/2015/01/18/critical-thinking-protecting-wicca-from-psuedoscience/

 

[Theweirdtophat]

People throw the term pseudoscience so many time it's almost lost it's meaning. There is such a thing as alchemy, psionics, magic and so forth. But whenever you say it out loud, people think you're crazy, thinking that you're claiming to do the stuff they do in movies. Lots of scientists have been wrong and it's not wise to just believe what they say because they are scientists. After all a lot of them are being led by money and being told what to say to the public. Follow the money is what they say.

When they call it pseudoscience they really mean that it's real but are discouraging people from finding it out by calling it fake.

 

[Augustus]

So, yes I ask a question to my Wiccan friend: "How do you know your spell worked?" He replied that knew that he would get a good and he got a good job. I would argue that he is bright, qualified, nice, well-educated, interviews well - and he applied to dozens of jobs before he got this one. He still thinks the spell is what did it, not him.

Perhaps the spell gave him increased confidence, motivation to apply, a positive attitude to deal with failed applications, etc. that indeed assisted in getting a job. Seeing as so much of our lives relates to the way we think and feel, anything that can change these has an effect on us.

Sometimes simply believing that something works or the the ritual/process behind it is what is important not whether it meets some 'objective truth' criterion.

Placebos can be very effective after all, but won't work if you don't believe in them. And if they work, what makes it 'irrational' to believe in them (within reason)?

 

[Augustus]

Actually it can alleviate it in some cases. Vertigo and cervicogenic headaches are often caused by cervical nerves being compressed by bulging or herniated discs, arthritis, calcifications. Not all treatments are effective for all people, but it doesn't mean they don't work at all and should be dismissed.

I remember when I was young, my favourite footballer had a career threatening pelvic injury that kept returning and kept him from playing for months. He eventually cured it after an 'alternative' medical practicioner fitted him with a mouthguard that relaxed the muscles in one side of his face. The injury had been causes by a balance issue that put excessive strain on one side of his body and the mouthguard fixed this.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You ask how can one tell the difference. I say you can't, not entirely. But if you put two and two together, it all starts to fall in place. Like scattered puzzle pieces. Each piece is important and if you put it together, you will see the entire picture.

That's not exactly an answer to my question. How do you go about "Putting the pieces together", exactly? What method do you use?

As far as real psychics go, no, they are not 100% accurate. But then, nobody is anyway. Even the most highly skilled psychic can be wrong with a few details.

First you need to demonstrate that psychics actually exist before you can make claims about the limits of their accuracy.

If you want links that actually go into detail of some hospitals trying to make money instead of helping, I can as well as the statistics where people die more from the legal drugs than the illegal ones. After all, just because it isn't all over the news doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Again, I live in the UK where hospitals make no money whatsoever from people being sick, so how does this even make sense?

It's difficult tell whether one is making it up or not. Although when you hear case after case, whether it's alien abductions, psychics, crystals, magic, ect. You start to wonder if some are real. But the thing is, some are real. Some have demonstrated it but with crystal healing you can't record it on a camera. Someone doesn't get healed instantly, but depending on the crystal and user, different affects change.

Please provde examples of all demonstrations you know of, please.

You hear stories of aliens sasqauatch or some mythological creature. Are all those people who said those things crazy. Every single one of them? No, not all.

Not crazy. They could be mistaken, deluded, confused or just plain lying. How can you demonstrate that any of their claims are true?

You are wanting evidence but you really want proof which is not the same thing.

No, I want evidence.

There's a difference between the two. Magic isn't something new and it doesn't make much sense for people to practice a craft that's been practiced for thousands of years, if they didn't get anything out of it. You just didn't spot it.

If their abilities are real, then they should be able to demonstrate them under reasonable experimental conditions. People throughout history have made all sorts of claims of things they can do - it doesn't mean that they actually can.

 

[Quintessence]

So, what you're saying is that astrology is really just a creative, thinking tool which doesn't need to be supernatural?

It's different things to different people; people interpret it and use it in many different ways. Are there people out there who understand it in a manner that you or I would find objectionable? Absolutely! There are also those that don't. The extent to which I'd use astrology in my practice is as a system of symbolism. While I find the other applications fascinating, it's not really my thing because my religion is explicitly earth-based, and deliberately focuses on the nature/gods local to my area. I'd rather spend my time popping open a book on the natural history of my state than reading a book on astrology, but I forced myself to do it a few years back because of how abundant astrological symbolism is within contemporary Paganisms. I figured I should at least have a cursory knowledge about the stuff, yeah?

This would mean if I switched around the meanings assigned to the different signs of the Zodiac, it wouldn't matter. It would all be just a game.

I'm sure you, personally, could treat it that way as you haven't studied astrology and don't care about it. It's doubtful it works that way for those who use it heavily. Saying this is akin to saying you could assign different meanings to words of the English language and it wouldn't matter, and that it's all just a game. For people who speak English, a particular configuration of letters in some particular order carries a specific meaning that serves various functions. It's not as flippant as you make it sound.

So, yes I ask a question to my Wiccan friend: "How do you know your spell worked?" He replied that knew that he would get a good and he got a good job. I would argue that he is bright, qualified, nice, well-educated, interviews well - and he applied to dozens of jobs before he got this one. He still thinks the spell is what did it, not him.

Are you sure that's what he thinks, or is it the way he likes to tell the story? In order to practice spellcraft at all, a person has to have an appreciation of their own personal power. This isn't like prayer to some god where a person wishes for some external agent to fix their lives for them - people who cast spells are using their own power and will to get things done. This means that while a practitioner of the craft may credit their spell, behind that story, they know that they are the ones who cast the spell, meaning their own power was behind it too. Thus, I'm not sure I believe it when he thinks the spell did it, and not him. If he cast the spell himself, those things are not distinct - he cast the spell himself, thus some of his own skill and abilities were inherently involved in the process.

For many people, spellcraft is personally empowering. It is a practice that empowers people, builds self-esteem, and helps people take charge of their lives. It doesn't sound like you've considered any of this in your assessment of the practices. As remarked earlier, it sounds like you fixate solely on questions of whether or not this stuff is "factual" or "real" when that isn't necessarily the point and does not govern the value of these practices. Again, these things are like arts. Look at what it does in people's lives. Look at the function and role it serves. It's a fantastic goal-setting tool that helps people get things done in their lives. Who bloody cares if the "woo" interpretations of it are "real" or not? The "woo" is not needed to practice, or for the practices to be effective and functional.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

What I meant there, TWTP, is that you don't have to be a practitioner of anything to develop an understanding of it. You can study it as an academic would study any other subject - by immersing in the literature of the relevant experts and authorities, being an observer at community events, doing interviews of people who do practice, etc. Do what any good anthropologist would do when studying a foreign culture, I guess; get to know it on its own terms and suspend judgments. In no way do I practice or experience astrology, but I studied enough of it to change my opinion about it a few years back (the previous opinion basically being the same "this is total BS" sentiment expressed by our OP).

I believe so. It is true that you don't have to practice it, but being a witness or being around someone who does that gives you a better idea. For example, you're more likely to believe in crystal healing if someone heals you with a crystal and your wound heals a lot faster than normal. Or you might believe in psychics more if you had one that knew what kind of person you were, and what was likely to happen.

 

[Quintessence]

Perhaps the spell gave him increased confidence, motivation to apply, a positive attitude to deal with failed applications, etc. that indeed assisted in getting a job. Seeing as so much of our lives relates to the way we think and feel, anything that can change these has an effect on us.

Sometimes simply believing that something works or the the ritual/process behind it is what is important not whether it meets some 'objective truth' criterion.

Placebos can be very effective after all, but won't work if you don't believe in them. And if they work, what makes it 'irrational' to believe in them (within reason)?

Exactly. No "woo" is necessary for things like spellcraft to be worthwhile and useful practices. It's a goal-setting tool. If people want to interpret it as taking advantage of "placebo," sure. But it bloody works. And the "it's all psychological" interpretation of spellcraft is not uncommon within the communities that practice.