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Woo, Pseudoscience and the limits of relativism

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I remember when I was young, my favourite footballer had a career threatening pelvic injury that kept returning and kept him from playing for months. He eventually cured it after an 'alternative' medical practicioner fitted him with a mouthguard that relaxed the muscles in one side of his face. The injury had been causes by a balance issue that put excessive strain on one side of his body and the mouthguard fixed this.

Yes. Muscle and tissue imbalances are insidious.They creep up without you even noticing it. For all these years I've had major imbalances because of my discs (my whole cervical and lumbar spine is a mess, had a L4-L5/L5-S1 fusion almost 4 months ago). It's perfectly plausible that an imbalance in any muscle (e.g. his head and/or neck) could affect his back, pelvis or legs.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I know there is truth in psychics, astrology and crystals. All crystals emit frequency and I have had experience with them. I also had experience with psychics. One who were actually psychic as opposed to the fake ones.

Can I prove it? No I guess I can't. For one thing some abilities can't call be proven on camera. Nevertheless they are real. Some people will also just end up refusing to believe it even if it's right in front of their face. I do find it strange that scientists call it pseudoscience even though many scientists back then also studied what some would call pseudoscience, like alchemy, telepathy, magic, ect. Like Da Vinci, Newton, George Washington Carver who all practiced it and openly admitted it, but I guess people don't like to bring that up for some reason.

All 3 of those things are very real. Need proof? Experience it like I did. That will be your proof.

Are you aware of Las Vegas not accepting psychics in their Casinos?

Ciao

- viole
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The problem with consulting as astrology as an expert in astrology is that astrology does not change, even in the face of contrary evidence. … There is been virtually no substantial progress in development of astrology since the 2nd century for this reason.
This is utter rubbish. The author of the paper you cite knows little of the subject. He states that Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos "is still recognized as a fundamental textbook of astrology", while in fact it was never considered as such even when it was written. Like Kepler, Ptolemy had more theories than evidence and the Tetrabiblos is a mixture of inspired and uninspired guesswork. I happen to be an expert on the history of astrology, and I can assure you that the practice of of today is nothing like that of the 2nd century and is significantly different to that of the 19th.
 

Heloise

Member
I'm sure you, personally, could treat it that way as you haven't studied astrology and don't care about it. It's doubtful it works that way for those who use it heavily. Saying this is akin to saying you could assign different meanings to words of the English language and it wouldn't matter, and that it's all just a game. For people who speak English, a particular configuration of letters in some particular order carries a specific meaning that serves various functions. It's not as flippant as you make it sound.


For many people, spellcraft is personally empowering. It is a practice that empowers people, builds self-esteem, and helps people take charge of their lives. It doesn't sound like you've considered any of this in your assessment of the practices. As remarked earlier, it sounds like you fixate solely on questions of whether or not this stuff is "factual" or "real" when that isn't necessarily the point and does not govern the value of these practices. Again, these things are like arts. Look at what it does in people's lives. Look at the function and role it serves. It's a fantastic goal-setting tool that helps people get things done in their lives. Who bloody cares if the "woo" interpretations of it are "real" or not? The "woo" is not needed to practice, or for the practices to be effective and functional.

The thing is that words are constantly being created and reassigned meaning. Words themselves mean different things in different languages. If a word is no longer useful, or its meaning needs to be changed, they meaning changes. Language is driven by utility. English from Chaucer's time is very different from modern English. The English in Beowulf is incomprehensible to modern English speakers. The word "gay" used to be happy of sprightly. Now it almost exclusively means "homosexual". And words in English are not universal. If were to be a German speaker, the vast majority of English words would have no meaning at all. Some would even have a different meaning. The word "gift" means "poison" in German. If I created a code where the word "bottle" meant "elephant" then "bottle" would be "elephant". They is no scientific or universal attachment of concepts to words.

So if Astrology is an science, the meanings attached to celestial movements should be based on evidence. So long as there were no substantial evidence to alter these meanings, the meaning should stay static. If there were evidence to show that Aries were y rather than x, then ti should be presented in a peer reviewed journal and if there ever enough substantiated evidence to change the meaning of Aries from y to x, then the general consensus within Astrology could change.

However, if it is an art and a thinking tool, then the meanings attached to celestial phenomena cannot be substantiated, so there is no reason why their meanings can't be mixed up at will. It's like if I played a card game and decided the king was the most powerful card and then played a different card game and decided the Ace was the most powerful. I could reassign meaning at will because the purpose is to stimulate thought. So, if Astrology is an art, it has no more meaning than a card game, because the elements don't have any inherent meaning.

Spellcraft is fine as a goalsetting device and a psychological tool. But there is a difference between saying spells are a useful psychological tool and saying that spells use "energy" and "magic" from another dimensions to change physical conditions.

So, there is no supernatural or divine or scientific element at all. It's just people saying useful psychological tricks on themselves. That's fine, but if that's what it is, that's what we should call it. Many people who practice magic think they are summoning extra-dimensional "energy", not just mentally psyching themselves to do something.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So if Astrology is an science...

It isn't, and doesn't (usually) claim to be. This makes the rest of your post somewhat moot, doesn't it?


However, if it is an art and a thinking tool, then the meanings attached to celestial phenomena cannot be substantiated, so there is no reason why their meanings can't be mixed up at will.

There are some very important reasons why it doesn't work this way: symbols, whether words or images, hold power in our psyche because of conditioning, or tradition. When symbolic meanings, or connotations of things become ingrained, they also become automatic or subconscious. Many areas of spellcraft and divination rely on these subconscious processes to prime the mind in a particular direction. If you upend the symbolic system and just mix it up at will, you break it and it will no longer function as it was intended. Again, it's like language - you can't just mix up meanings of words and swap out letter-symbols and have a sentence that will be comprehensible to someone who knows English.

Inc lor ase, el wor rila ro kek. Joa?


It's like if I played a card game and decided the king was the most powerful card and then played a different card game and decided the Ace was the most powerful. I could reassign meaning at will because the purpose is to stimulate thought. So, if Astrology is an art, it has no more meaning than a card game, because the elements don't have any inherent meaning.

I'm not seeing how this is a useful argument against astrology considering, when we get right down to it, nothing in the universe has inherent meaning. It's humans who make up the stories of meaning.


Spellcraft is fine as a goalsetting device and a psychological tool. But there is a difference between saying spells are a useful psychological tool and saying that spells use "energy" and "magic" from another dimensions to change physical conditions.

Yes, there is. It serves as a case in point that what one believes about something is often irrelevant with respect to the results of its implementation, or its value as a practice. Brings about a salient question: if someone practicing this stuff yields positive benefits in their life, why do you care what they believe about it? Additionally, is it really your business at all? One of the fantastic things about this planet we live on is its diversity. I'm sorry, but it would be painfully pedestrian if we all thought the same things, and all did the same things. Let others to their ways, and mind your own, yes?
 

Heloise

Member
There are some very important reasons why it doesn't work this way: symbols, whether words or images, hold power in our psyche because of conditioning, or tradition. When symbolic meanings, or connotations of things become ingrained, they also become automatic or subconscious. Many areas of spellcraft and divination rely on these subconscious processes to prime the mind in a particular direction. If you upend the symbolic system and just mix it up at will, you break it and it will no longer function as it was intended. Again, it's like language - you can't just mix up meanings of words and swap out letter-symbols and have a sentence that will be comprehensible to someone who knows English.

Inc lor ase, el wor rila ro kek. Joa?

So again, if I gave a false birthdate (or if I didn't know my date of birth and made up something) to an astrologer, why would it matter? If everything is symbolic language to spur subconscious thoughts.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So again, if I gave a false birthdate (or if I didn't know my date of birth and made up something) to an astrologer, why would it matter?

The only person who can answer questions like that is you. Meaningfulness is something each individual makes for themselves. Why might it matter? Maybe you care about behaving with integrity and not being a liar? Maybe you like things that are personalized to you, as opposed to mass produced garbage? Maybe you find the symbolism of astrology fascinating and meaningful? Maybe you find the meaningfulness in some other way? Regardless, that's not for me or anyone else to answer on your behalf.

If you don't like astrology, then don't partake of it. That said, it is polite and courteous to respect that other people like it, and not stare down one's nose at another because they have different tastes. Though I'll confess, I've a really hard time doing that when it comes to people who like football. Football is pure rubbish. ;)
 

Heloise

Member
The only person who can answer questions like that is you. Meaningfulness is something each individual makes for themselves. Why might it matter? Maybe you care about behaving with integrity and not being a liar? Maybe you like things that are personalized to you, as opposed to mass produced garbage? Maybe you find the symbolism of astrology fascinating and meaningful? Maybe you find the meaningfulness in some other way? Regardless, that's not for me or anyone else to answer on your behalf.

If you don't like astrology, then don't partake of it. That said, it is polite and courteous to respect that other people like it, and not stare down one's nose at another because they have different tastes. Though I'll confess, I've a really hard time doing that when it comes to people who like football. Football is pure rubbish. ;)

So, you have just proved my point. Astrology is just one game among many. The practitioner imposes meaning on the game rather than the reverse. If I wanted to say I was born on August 23 instead of March 23, it wouldn't matter since I impose meaning on the horoscope, not the other way around. It's the same as using inkblots, fortune cookies or word association.

You are smarter than most people. Most people don't interpret woo as having just symbolic or metaphorical value. Most people interpret it literally.

You are ending your argument with the old adage:

"Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur"

Thinking, rational people don't want to remain in ignorance, even if the truth is ugly or un
glamorous.

Most people don't really think. And I think that antirationality is dangerous and leaves people vulnerable both to solipsism at one extreme and to fundamentalism at the other
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So, you have just proved my point. Astrology is just one game among many. The practitioner imposes meaning on the game rather than the reverse.

It goes both ways, actually. I don't agree that I have proved your point at all, but it seems you are unable to view this in any other way. So be it.


You are smarter than most people. Most people don't interpret woo as having just symbolic or metaphorical value. Most people interpret it literally.

While I thank you for the compliment, I don't think we're in a position to say what "most people" do without statistical evidence demonstrating this to be the case. With respect to my own (albeit limited and anecdotal) experience with various aspects of occult/magical communities, taking things at face value (or "literally" as you say) is the more uncommon perspective. In my experience, the folks who take these things at face value tend to be the amateurs, the noobs, and the dabblers who have yet to develop a more mature practice. This is to be expected, considering folks who first come to these practices are loaded up with ideas about what we do informed by inaccurate cultural stereotypes. Oh well. Eventually, they learn - and then they either mature or abandon it. Development theories like those of Fowler are sometimes useful for informing these things. Don't fully agree with everything about their model, but I find it interesting and it has some applications here: http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html
 

Heloise

Member
In my experience, the folks who take these things at face value tend to be the amateurs, the noobs, and the dabblers who have yet to develop a more mature practice.

Apparently, there's big money to be made from noobs. Astrology literature tends to take itself literally. It's certainly noobish to break up with someone based their astrological sign.

http://www.astrology.com/game/compatibility/zodiac-signs/love.html
http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-05-17/astrology-101-five-reasons-to-break-up-with-each-sign/
http://www.3horoscopes.com/free-birth-chart-astrology.php
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
Frankly, to cite those first two sites as "astrology literature" can only be described as stupid or dishonest. The third site does appear to be real astrology, and not making money. Anyone who wants to see what real astrologers do, might do worse than to look here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/
You can even read some of my old articles!
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It's wise to bear in mind the difference between pop sources and professional sources... as well as to not mistake the one for the other. Learning to not mistake one for the other requires some competency in the subject at hand. It's also wise to remember that low-brow, click-bait headlines have become a general plague upon this contemporary information age, and that this problem is hardly limited to any one subject area. *sigh*
 
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