Word of Faith debate

[rocka21]

No, her post says that the Muslims that do find themselves in this situation and don't give anything will be judged for their selfishness.



Who said Christians don't assist the poor?



Can you point out where she specifically accused you of not giving to the poor, or accused you of being selfish? Because, I certainly don't see it. Maybe it's a reading skill thing...

your are correct, i read the post wrong. sorry.:sorry1:



so why is she bringing this scripture up at all then? she must think that WOF people don't believe in giving to the poor or something.

 

[rocka21]

You're missing the point and overreacting, rocka. The Bible doesn't declare that we should seek either riches or poverty, or that one state is more desirable than the other. It does say, however, that the love of money is the root of all evil, that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, and that we should seek first the kingdom of God, then all these things shall be added unto us. The examples you gave about Abraham, Job, David, etc., are exceptions, not the rule, in Scripture. Jesus Himself was a homeless, poor rabbi while He walked this earth.

Word of Faith twists all the Scriptures about God blessing us into statements about our divine rights to wealth and health. You yourself said they were your "rights". WOF teaching basically exalts the blessings of God over God Himself, as John Piper pointed out. And this is so, so dangerous. There is nothing wrong with being rich. If God blesses some with wealth, then that's totally up to God. But we shouldn't treat God like a giant vending machine and distort His Word to try to manipulate Him to give us what we want. Which is basically what WOF does. Jesus said to store our treasures in heaven, not here on earth, and to seek first His kingdom. We should always make God our ultimate treasure and pleasure, then, if He desires, He may bless us with health and wealth. It's not the other way around.

your are correct. the love of money is the root of all evil. ( i don't love it, i love God) and no WOF preachers i have heard say to love money.

you are correct. it is easier for the camel to go throu the eye, than a man who TRUST in his riches to get him to heaven. ( i don't trust in riches, i have never heard a WOF preacher say trust in riches).

God is my ultimate treasure and pleasure.

if he desires? above all i desire that you prosper and be in health even as your soul prospers.

and as far as my " rights" , i did correct that and said my " gift". or did you read that part.

 

[Hope]

you love your little videos don't you?

LOL. this guy seems mad.

lets do a little test i will type a name , you tell me rich or poor.

Abraham
Moses
Job
Solomon - i will answer that one for you ( RICHEST MAN ON EARTH)
David

its not a NEW gospel that god blesses his people. read my earlier post on the richest nation.

John Piper has every reason to be "mad," as you put it. Because he knows how dangerous the prosperity gospel is.

Not one of your examples sought riches or claimed they had a "right" to them. God chose to bless each of them because of their love and faithfulness to Him. And I find it amusing that you mention Job, because God allowed everything to be taken away from him even when he had done nothing wrong. That seems to contradict the prosperity gospel, doesn't it? And Job's wise statement "the Lord gives, the Lord takes away...blessed be the name of the Lord" also contradicts the prosperity gospel. Whether in health or sickness, or wealth or poverty, God is still God and God is still good.

What about all the prophets in the Bible? Were they wealthy men? What about Jesus' disciples? Were they wealthy men? I see no evidence that any of them were. In fact, the prophets and the disciples suffered probably more than any other group of godly people in the Bible. Most of the disciples were martyred. I don't think the health and wealth gospel would've gone over too well with them.

And if you read the Psalms, you will see David often complaining about the prospering of the wicked. And we see this even today. The wicked still prosper. And Psalm 34 says "many are the afflictions of the righteous, but God delivers him out of them all." I could go on and on. There are so many examples, and so many Scriptures, that contradict the WOF teaching.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The Word of Faith sect is an old one, dating back to the first century. I was able to unearth Jesus commending these incredible disciples for their faith in mammon;

Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'" NIV

Here's to the church with the nads to buck 2000 years of selfless giving by wanting it all for themselves! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! I realize where I made my mistake now. Instead of telling me to be selfless, it was really code for being selfish! Jesus didn't really mean to "Go and make Disciples", he really meant to "Go and make MONEY!" Maybe we should start calling it the Go$pel???

 

[rocka21]

John Piper has every reason to be "mad," as you put it. Because he knows how dangerous the prosperity gospel is.

Not one of your examples sought riches or claimed they had a "right" to them. God chose to bless each of them because of their love and faithfulness to Him. And I find it amusing that you mention Job, because God allowed everything to be taken away from him even when he had done nothing wrong. That seems to contradict the prosperity gospel, doesn't it? And Job's wise statement "the Lord gives, the Lord takes away...blessed be the name of the Lord" also contradicts the prosperity gospel. Whether in health or sickness, or wealth or poverty, God is still God and God is still good.

What about all the prophets in the Bible? Were they wealthy men? What about Jesus' disciples? Were they wealthy men? I see no evidence that any of them were. In fact, the prophets and the disciples suffered probably more than any other group of godly people in the Bible. Most of the disciples were martyred. I don't think the health and wealth gospel would've gone over too well with them.

And if you read the Psalms, you will see David often complaining about the prospering of the wicked. And we see this even today. The wicked still prosper. And Psalm 34 says "many are the afflictions of the righteous, but God delivers him out of them all." I could go on and on. There are so many examples, and so many Scriptures, that contradict the WOF teaching.

did you just bring up the " right" again. I know you just did not bring up the " right " again. After all, going on and on and on again , by saying it was a gift.

yes God is God, and i will serve him, rich or poor. I do BELIEVE in this.

Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.


wealth is part of the covenant that god swore unto us.

Matthew 27:57
When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

there is a rich disciple for you.

also.

Mark 6:8
And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:


why would jesus have to tell them not to take it , if they did not have it?

Mark 6:37
He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred pennyworth of bread, and give them to eat?


how could the deciples buy TWO HUNDRED PENNYWORTH of bread , if they were poor?

you say you see no evidence. Mabey you just don't LOOK

 

[rocka21]

The Word of Faith sect is an old one, dating back to the first century. I was able to unearth Jesus commending these incredible disciples for their faith in mammon;

Matthew 21:12 Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13 "It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'" NIV

Here's to the church with the nads to buck 2000 years of selfless giving by wanting it all for themselves! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! I realize where I made my mistake now. Instead of telling me to be selfless, it was really code for being selfish! Jesus didn't really mean to "Go and make Disciples", he really meant to "Go and make MONEY!" Maybe we should start calling it the Go$pel???

LOL.
matthew 12 is talking about WOF. LOL...... talk about bending the scriptures.

why can't i make money and make disciples?

do you make money scuba?

 

[jamaesi]

So you are saying that there are no muslims that live in Extreme wealth and no people around them live in extreme poverty?

christians assist the poor. its called alms.

I am selfish?....... thanks

the truth is you don't know how much money i have given to the poor. ( and i am willing to bet that i have given more MONEY to the poor this year than you). now who is selfish?

why? because i prosper.

I'm sure there's poor Muslims. I'm sure there's rich Muslims. I was just saying that's how it's supposed to work in Islam. Asking G-d for riches beyound belief is ridiculous, G-d doesn't want that or care about or even want you to have that. G-d wants you to take care of others.

You know what, I'm going to bet that you aren't currently a (in hiatus) college student with thousands of dollars worth of tuition bills to pay and your medical expenses for this year have been over 100,000 dollars, last estimate, and I'm going to need more surgeries and procedures and scans before this year is up. Of course, that's much lower than when I managed to rack up almost a million in less than two years. Me and my mum's income? We'll be lucky if it's 30-40k this year and definitely not enough for regular bills and my medical ones, even with insurance.

Does it make you feel good to gloat? Cause I sure as golly gosh hope it does. Wanna come over later and make fun of me for not being able to walk, too? Wanna make fun of my old clothes? How about my food, we can't really afford anything fancy, I'm sure you can giggle in glee about how much better your meals are.

I'm not going to say how much money and other things and time I gave to charity this year, because that's between me and G-d. It's not a bragging point, you might as well keep your wealth away from charity if that's all it is to you.

your are correct, i read the post wrong. sorry.:sorry1:



so why is she bringing this scripture up at all then? she must think that WOF people don't believe in giving to the poor or something.

Uh, cause you asked? Honestly, ask yourself.

And no, I don't believe that. I just don't understand this asking for wealth from G-d thing.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't believe in God to make money. I don't expect God to bless me financially: only spiritually. I find your approach to the scriptures refreshingly mercenary with a touch of cynicism to boot.

 

[rocka21]

I'm sure there's poor Muslims. I'm sure there's rich Muslims. I was just saying that's how it's supposed to work in Islam. Asking G-d for riches beyound belief is ridiculous, G-d doesn't want that or care about or even want you to have that. G-d wants you to take care of others.

You know what, I'm going to bet that you aren't currently a (in hiatus) college student with thousands of dollars worth of tuition bills to pay and your medical expenses for this year have been over 100,000 dollars, last estimate, and I'm going to need more surgeries and procedures and scans before this year is up. Of course, that's much lower than when I managed to rack up almost a million in less than two years. Me and my mum's income? We'll be lucky if it's 30-40k this year and definitely not enough for regular bills and my medical ones, even with insurance.

Does it make you feel good to gloat? Cause I sure as golly gosh hope it does. Wanna come over later and make fun of me for not being able to walk, too? Wanna make fun of my old clothes? How about my food, we can't really afford anything fancy, I'm sure you can giggle in glee about how much better your meals are.

I'm not going to say how much money and other things and time I gave to charity this year, because that's between me and G-d. It's not a bragging point, you might as well keep your wealth away from charity if that's all it is to you.



Uh, cause you asked? Honestly, ask yourself.

And no, I don't believe that. I just don't understand this asking for wealth from G-d thing.

wow!

that whole post was because i thought you accused me of wanting all the money and not giving to others.

another poster corrected me on the and i said i was sorry, i misread the post.

or did you not see that!!!!!

you still come AFTER my mistake , and trash me.

my giving is not a " braging " point and i was not braging. Again..... i was responding to something that was not said.

 

[rocka21]

I don't believe in God to make money. I don't expect God to bless me financially: only spiritually. I find your approach to the scriptures refreshingly mercenary with a touch of cynicism to boot.

I believe God for EVERYTHING.

the air i breath, my family, the health in my body, the money in my bank account.

my whole life is his. His blessings are great and i love him very much. I believe God will bless me spiritually and naturally.

sorry if thats so hard to understand for some.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

***MOD ADVISORY***

This is a debate. Please remember to address the issues raised in the OP and refrain from insulting one another. Thanks.

 

[rocka21]

You know what, I'm going to bet that you aren't currently a (in hiatus) college student with thousands of dollars worth of tuition bills to pay and your medical expenses for this year have been over 100,000 dollars, last estimate, and I'm going to need more surgeries and procedures and scans before this year is up. Of course, that's much lower than when I managed to rack up almost a million in less than two years. Me and my mum's income? We'll be lucky if it's 30-40k this year and definitely not enough for regular bills and my medical ones, even with insurance.

sounds like you are perfect for some " WOF". why don't you believe God to supply your needs and pray according to Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

for your healing?

instead , you get mad because i ask God for something.

John 16:24
Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

John 14:14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

 

[jamaesi]

You really don't read or try to understand anything I say...

And there you go, putting something else into my mouth. Where was I mad?


Until you would like to have a real debate and/or dialogue, I'm out.

 

[rocka21]

You really don't read or try to understand anything I say...

And there you go, putting something else into my mouth. Where was I mad?


Until you would like to have a real debate and/or dialogue, I'm out.

God Bless

 

[Scuba Pete]

One last scripture before I consider this a "lost cause"...

James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV

When you pray, pray for the needs of OTHERS. And never, ever pray for blessings to enrich your own life.

 

[rocka21]

One last scripture before I consider this a "lost cause"...

James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV



When you pray, pray for the needs of OTHERS. And never, ever pray for blessings to enrich your own life.

give us this day our daily bread.
"
is that not praying for your own life?

the scripture you quote is very true. do not ask god for gain for selfish reasons. I do not quarel because i don't get something. and i am not a friend to the world , but a friend to God.

 

[Hope]

The bottom line, rocka, is that, yes, God does supply all our needs, and He will bless us according to His will, when and as He sees fit (and blessing, btw, does not automatically translate into "health and wealth") .....however, where Word of Faith goes wrong is making the point of our devotion to Him solely "what kind of tangible gain do I get out of Him?". This may not be always blatantly stated, and you yourself have skirted the admission, but it is implied in the very essence of WOF teaching.

The real point of the Christian faith is simply having a relationship with Christ. And Christ told us to pick up our crosses, deny ourselves, and follow Him. Paul said he counted everything as rubbish compared to knowing Christ. Knowing Christ is what it's truly all about. Not "what can Christ give me." Word of Faith is akin to a woman loving a very rich man only for the nice things he gives her. That's a pretty shallow love. Real love is not based on what the other person can give us or do for us, but simply on who the other person is. Our goal should be loving Christ simply for Who He is. That, my friend, is the essence of the Christian faith, and why the WOF/prosperity gospel disturbs me so much.

 

[rocka21]

The bottom line, rocka, is that, yes, God does supply all our needs, and He will bless us according to His will, when and as He sees fit (and blessing, btw, does not automatically translate into "health and wealth") .....however, where Word of Faith goes wrong is making the point of our devotion to Him solely "what kind of tangible gain do I get out of Him?". This may not be always blatantly stated, and you yourself have skirted the admission, but it is implied in the very essence of WOF teaching.

The real point of the Christian faith is simply having a relationship with Christ. And Christ told us to pick up our crosses, deny ourselves, and follow Him. Paul said he counted everything as rubbish compared to knowing Christ. Knowing Christ is what it's truly all about. Not "what can Christ give me." Word of Faith is akin to a woman loving a very rich man only for the nice things he gives her. That's a pretty shallow love. Real love is not based on what the other person can give us or do for us, but simply on who the other person is. Our goal should be loving Christ simply for Who He is. That, my friend, is the essence of the Christian faith, and why the WOF/prosperity gospel disturbs me so much.

I know the essence of the christian faith. I pick up my cross, i deny my own will for his, i follow him. I don't serve God for what christ can give me, i serve him because he died on the cross for me.

2 Corinthians 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.


I think its a slap in his face not to take advantage of the blessing that christ died for.

I see my views are different than most.

so please, you and scuba pete. pray for me and my church in october.

we are believing for 1000 souls to say yes to Jesus. Last year we had over 1000 in the month of october to make Jesus lord.

we will do ( heartbreak hotel, and tour of hell). two productions two draw people to the cross. We spend thousands of dollars as a church for these productions.

i am so glad we have the PROSPERITY to have productions like this. Have a christian school with over 500 students, a bible college, numerous outreaches and missionary work. It takes faith, and money.


in closing,

i think God gives his prosperity to people who will use it for his kingdom. Yeah, the world might think they are alittle crazy, but while the baptist down the street sit in there " old timey" church and point there finger and call us " false prohpets" we will be DOING the work of the kingdom, on billboards, tv, radio, books....... any way we can.

thank you lord for your blessings! and keep blessing those who are not ashamed to believe you for the best.

 

[Comprehend]

Rocka,

How did the Apostles live from the time Christ made his supposed promise to make them immediately rich to their deaths?

Was it:

A. A luxurious life in huge mansions with huge amounts of money?
B. Poor, penniless, transient lives going from city to city with no real money to speak of?


If your answer is A, would you mind sharing the scriptures that show the luxurious lifestyle of the apostles, if it is B, did Jesus lie or are you misunderstanding the scripture?

 

[Comprehend]

we are believing for 1000 souls to say yes to Jesus. Last year we had over 1000 in the month of october to make Jesus lord.

The LDS church adds around 350,000 souls each year.

we will do ( heartbreak hotel, and tour of hell). two productions two draw people to the cross. We spend thousands of dollars as a church for these productions.

The LDS church has given over $906,000,000 in Humanitarian aid since 1985 in 163 countries without any obligation from the recipients. There are also 3,552 members currently serving Welfare and Humanitarian missions besides the 53,000 full-time proselyting missions.

The LDS church provides more than 4,500 family history centers in 70 countries around the world for those interested in research free of charge.

and of course we do literally hundreds of thousands of hours of labor as service in our communities each year with a dollar amount that would be very difficult to calculate.

i am so glad we have the PROSPERITY to have productions like this. Have a christian school with over 500 students, a bible college, numerous outreaches and missionary work. It takes faith, and money.

The LDS church has 4 Universities/Colleges with over 45,000 students.


And with all that, we don't chase money but rather give it away, you don't have to make money the focus of your religion in order to do good with it.