Worship and Prayer can be LHP

[jasonwill2]

To say that worship and prayer cannot be compatible with the Left Hand Path is simply conforming to the most popular dogma among self-described walkers of the Path, and it is quite ironic and hilarious.

"Worship", means simply, worthy of praise or respect. I worship many things, myself (I'm awesome), milk (insanely love milk), hot-fries (I have an addiction to these things), power (I want it!), Lilith (because of my experience with Succubi), Lucifer (more of the archetype than an entity), and Satan (cause' he's helped me more than any other god).

You don't have to believe in a god to worship, you can worship yourself, or anything you like. Even symbolic Left Hand Path-ers worship at least some archetype or ideal as an atheistic "mode of behavior" or "enlightener" such as Lucifer or Satan.

Prayer, before it became more like a conversation, used to be an invocation, a mantra, or a meditative chant. As magickal users, we all say invocations in the beginning of a ritual or spell... THAT IS A PRAYER in it's non-whitewashed version.

However, what people think of as "worship" and "prayer" in regards to the Left Hand Path, they are more responding to the connotations instead of the actual definition of these terms. I worship Satan, but I don't grovel. I say invocations when upset, but I don't bow my head and act like I'm talking to someone right beside me.

Truth is, if you say invocations, you pray to whatever god you invoke. And truth is, if you rock out to Satanic music... that is prasing Satan. If Christians rock out and sing songs to praise their god, then what is it that we are doing in our massive "Satanic music" topic? I mean... the VERY FIRST SONG posted is called "Unholy Praises" by an atheistic member of the Church of Satan: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/satanism-dir/125658-satanic-music.html

"But jasonwill2!" someone might say, "Worship and prayer is against the definition of what the Left Hand Path entails!"

Oh really? :sarcastic What definition? Yours? Are you forcing your subjective and non-dictionary and historically incorrect definition onto my beliefs? Isn't that just a dogma of a different kind, like when you see a bunch of people dressed in all black hanging out together, but complaining about conformity? Who defines the Left Hand Path? You don't, I don't, at least if it is supposed to be anti-dogma.

Wikipedia:

The Left-Hand Path

The historian Dave Evans studied self-professed followers of the Left-Hand Path in the early 21st century, making several observations about their practices:

• They often reject societal convention and the status quo, which some suggest is in a search for spiritual freedom. As a part of this, LHP followers embrace magical techniques that would traditionally be viewed as taboo, for instance using sex magic or embracing Satanic imagery.[6] As Mogg Morgan wrote, the "breaking of taboos makes magick more potent and can lead to reintegration and liberation, [for example] the eating of meat in a vegetarian community can have the same liberating effect as anal intercourse in a sexually inhibited straight society."[7]
• They often question religious or moral dogma, instead adhering to forms of personal anarchism.[8]
• They often embrace sexuality and incorporate it into magical ritual.[9]

Under these definitions, various esoteric groups, often with widely differing beliefs, could be considered to be followers of the LHP. These include various forms of Satanism, such as LaVeyan Satanism as well as Theistic Satanism. Other Western LHP philosophies include Setianism, the Typhonian Order, Luciferianism, some beliefs of the New Age movement, chaos magic, Feri, magicians involved with demonology, as well as groups like the Dragon Rouge and the Order of Nine Angles. The Petwo cult of Haitian Vodou reflects the LHP ethos. Several eastern philosophies could also be viewed as adhering to the LHP including forms of Taoism, forms of Hinduism such as Aghoris and Vamachara, forms of Buddhism like the Drukpa Lineage and Bön.

Left-hand path and right-hand path - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that it includes Theistic Satanism and several, several Theistic groups. The Left Hand Path's origins, as well as how it is practiced today, has always been about HETERODOX PRACTICES. Take a look at some of the Left hand Path Hindus and the Tibet Buddhists... the most hardcore Satanists got NOTHING on the Tibet monks. Those guys are hardcore, as are Vāmācāra (if I am thinking of the other correct group I was talking to someone about recently). Take note that in the origins of the terms, the Left Hand Path practitioners still did worship and use invocations/prayers.

So to summarize... worship and prayer are not mutually exclusive from the Left Hand Path, and if you try to argue that it is... doesn't that make you a dogma of another kind, particularly in light of everything that I just said?

Hail Satan! (See?! This means to salute Satan! A form of being worthy of respect!)

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Are you spiritually free if you're attached to a god?

 

[InfidelRiot]

Are you spiritually free if you're attached to a god?

Is the spirit not a religious concept?

 

[jasonwill2]

Are you spiritually free if you're attached to a god?

Are you insinuating (I ask knowing your opinion on the matter) that the Left Hand Path is the dis-attachment to supernatural forces?

Because that is historically incorrect, that idea being around for only 50 or so years at most. And at that, to them having no gods is merely one part of following the Left Hand Path.

 

[Iti oj]

as long as the self comes first any thing/one can be lhp.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*** Staff Advisory ***

Thread moved to General Religious Debates at the request of the OP. All members may now participate.​

 

[Quintessence]

It seems to me that having a cohesive definition of something isn't exactly the same thing as suggesting dogma. If something lacks a cohesive definition, it has no identity. If neither you nor anyone else has the authority to define what LHP is, then who does? If nobody does, does the term have any meaning at all? I understand the desire to avoid falling into the "no true scotsman" problem, but at some point, terms need definitions (even if only for the purpose of a cohesive discussion with another person). Its not a matter or dogmatism, it's a matter of being able to actually communicate with people and meaningfully identify as part of a group. Right? Maybe?

 

[Me Myself]

From what I read in wiki, I don`t see how LHP necesarily excludes worship at all.

 

[1137]

I am not sure why people think that worship and prayer are not compatible with the LHP. It is more like dedication to a deity, conforming to the will of one and obeying them, etc. If you bind yourself to a deity you are not truly free, and if you sacrifice your freedom I do not find you compatible with the LHP. However, the things you have pointed out in this thread to not necessarily contradict with the LHP, I agree with you on that one. People seem to think our path is just the rejection of everything RHP, which includes prayer and worship. An ignorant POV for those who choose to remain in the dark, nothing more.

 

[1137]

Pray every day will help you toget a miracle

False. Miracles are non-existent even by their very definition.

 

[Me Myself]

False. Miracles are non-existent even by their very definition.

You will deviate the purpose of this threadf very fast

 

[Me Myself]

Definition of miracle
noun
an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency:

I don`t see it as hard at all. According to Oxford standards at least.

There are a lot of things sicence hasn`t discovered yet, and people will and do attribute them to a divine being or beings

 

[1137]

Don't derail the thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...istent-their-very-definition.html#post3040385

 

[jasonwill2]

It seems to me that having a cohesive definition of something isn't exactly the same thing as suggesting dogma. If something lacks a cohesive definition, it has no identity. If neither you nor anyone else has the authority to define what LHP is, then who does? If nobody does, does the term have any meaning at all? I understand the desire to avoid falling into the "no true scotsman" problem, but at some point, terms need definitions (even if only for the purpose of a cohesive discussion with another person). Its not a matter or dogmatism, it's a matter of being able to actually communicate with people and meaningfully identify as part of a group. Right? Maybe?

Was the definition I used inadequate? The one that has been used for millennia? That says the the Left Hand Path is about Heterodox practices and thought? There is a cohesive definition that has been used for thousands of years, but people have been slowly trying to change the definition, even when it was left=black magic and right=white magic, is still had the same meaning pretty much, but then Anton LaVey opened it up to newer, more false interpretations of what the term actually means, even if he didn't explicitly himself.

From what I read in wiki, I don`t see how LHP necesarily excludes worship at all.

Exactly, and in it's origins LHP Hindus still worshiped.

I am not sure why people think that worship and prayer are not compatible with the LHP. It is more like dedication to a deity, conforming to the will of one and obeying them, etc. If you bind yourself to a deity you are not truly free, and if you sacrifice your freedom I do not find you compatible with the LHP. However, the things you have pointed out in this thread to not necessarily contradict with the LHP, I agree with you on that one. People seem to think our path is just the rejection of everything RHP, which includes prayer and worship. An ignorant POV for those who choose to remain in the dark, nothing more.

Wait... your agreeing with me?

 

[1137]

Wait... your agreeing with me?

Hehe, I guess my thread on miracles not existing is void.

 

[Cassiopia]

Overall I agree with Jason's OP. For me prayer means communication and I certainly communicate with Satan. I call it prayer. I also agree that worship means expressing the worth of something or somebody and in that sense I worship Satan. I tend to see Satan in several ways at once, so for me worship includes both worshiping my own self and worshiping an entity and an archetype. I am not subservient to Satan, but I do respect him and the knowledge and enlightenment he can unlock in myself and others.

 

[Quintessence]

Woah, woah, wait a minute. It's my understanding that "left hand path" is a term that didn't come into Western use until the occult revival of the 19th century. Thousands of years old? What? Sorry, but I'm going to call BS on that unless there's some evidence presented. Whether or not LaVey has been shifting the definition relative to its precursors in say, Blavatsky's Theosophy is a legitimate question and one I'm definitely not suited to answer. I'll keep my jury out until I read something by a scholar or historian analyzing the issue.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you all will permit me to go on a tangent here, I believe Jason is in need of some guidance or help. He has made it all too clear that he does not want help from the Christian side and I respect that.

Being a former Pagan, I know both sides have abilities and powers to solve this problem.

To evoke spirits, one has to retain control of the situation and just perhaps Jason may have lost control of the situation at some time in the past. This is just a hunch and you all can feel free to ignore my observation.

It is my hope that some of you all will assist Jason in regaining control over these spirits.

When I evoked spirits in the past, I contained them within the circle while I was protected outside the circle within a protective triangle. If these spirits had a chance to get inside Jason in the past, perhaps he will need the services of another magickan to seperate the two of them.

Sorry to get off topic, but the LHP group here rarely posts outside the DIR and I wanted to use this opportunity to offer some input.

 

[Cassiopia]

Woah, woah, wait a minute. It's my understanding that "left hand path" is a term that didn't come into Western use until the occult revival of the 19th century. Thousands of years old? What? Sorry, but I'm going to call BS on that unless there's some evidence presented. Whether or not LaVey has been shifting the definition relative to its precursors in say, Blavatsky's Theosophy is a legitimate question and one I'm definitely not suited to answer. I'll keep my jury out until I read something by a scholar or historian analyzing the issue.

I think Jason is referring to the fact that the term LHP indeed has a history that predates the time when it began to be used in Western occult practices.

 

[Cassiopia]

If you all will permit me to go on a tangent here, I believe Jason is in need of some guidance or help. He has made it all too clear that he does not want help from the Christian side and I respect that.

Being a former Pagan, I know both sides have abilities and powers to solve this problem.

To evoke spirits, one has to retain control of the situation and just perhaps Jason may have lost control of the situation at some time in the past. This is just a hunch and you all can feel free to ignore my observation.

It is my hope that some of you all will assist Jason in regaining control over these spirits.

When I evoked spirits in the past, I contained them within the circle while I was protected outside the circle within a protective triangle. If these spirits had a chance to get inside Jason in the past, perhaps he will need the services of another magickan to seperate the two of them.

Sorry to get off topic, but the LHP group here rarely posts outside the DIR and I wanted to use this opportunity to offer some input.

What do you think Jason? Could RR have a point?
I don't know enough about your personal history to be sure, but if you have perhaps accidentally lost control over something you invoked in the past it could be messing with you in ways you don't realize...