Would an Abrahamic God deserve our forgiveness?

[TheMusicTheory]

Also, I doubt this question is pointed towards people who don't believe in the Abrahamic God, because that in itself would not make sense either...

Why? Because you say so?

It's a perfectly acceptable question of philosophy and supposition. The basis being "If the Abrahamic God *did exist*, then would he deserve forgiveness". Non-believers are just as capable of answering said question because the entire premise is to assume that he does.

Since this question is only valid to those who believe in this God, it automatically makes no sense since His believers would not doubt Him or require from Him to ask for forgiveness.

Again, it is not valid for "only those who believe". You may not understand WHY it is valid to others, but that doesn't make it invalid.

Now if you were indeed one to believe in God, yet believe him to be the cruel egotistic being that you portray him to be, then he would never ask for your forgiveness, now would he?

Which is completely beside the point. The question was not "would this God *ask* for your forgiveness", it was "would he *deserve* it". Those are different questions.

PS: It's always very refreshing to see others teaching us about OUR literature.

I know all but plenty about Christian doctrine as I grew up deeply inside it and believed it for 22 years of my life. Jewish, not so much, but I never made that claim.

 

[Thoughts]

You kill and destroy and in the end you says Allah did

People brought problem to this world
Like wars and killing

What Allah did is that he put rules and condition
For human benefits but they broke all the rules

So that is why we have another life

To punish who disobeyed and reward who obeyed

Allah gave us ability to control our life
But he took us ability to control our spirit

If spirit decompose from body there must be someone do the act of decomposing

It is allah who decompose our soul

 

[Sleeppy]

You kill and destroy and in the end you says Allah did

People brought problem to this world
Like wars and killing

What Allah did is that he put rules and condition
For human benefits but they broke all the rules

So that is why we have another life

To punish who disobeyed and reward who obeyed

Allah gave us ability to control our life
But he took us ability to control our spirit

If spirit decompose from body there must be someone do the act of decomposing

It is allah who decompose our soul

The ability to control your life isn't yours. Your parents made you. So when you look in the mirror, you see them. And when you do anything, your parents give you the ability to do so. If you were born as a horse, you'd look and act like your parents who were horses.

Muhammed was no greater than you, or his parents. God didn't make the resurrection for punishment of His creation, He made it for the reconciliation to life.

No one, not even Muhammed, could escape sin and death. Do you know why?

 

[Skwim]

I wasn't being derisive. If that's the way you saw it, what can I say. You are reading emotions that aren't there. I am not angry, I am not even aggravated or anything.

And coal isn't black.

I am not sure how you expect people to react when you constantly attack their faith.

Laying out the facts of a religion amounts to attacking it, particularly when the issue is the very nature of the Christian god, as laid out in the OP?

"would this God deserve to forgiven for the act of creating a world in which such great suffering is wrought upon so many?"
​

Not to be harsh, but if you can't stand the heat . . . . And you do realize, do you not, that you are in an debate room.

"Religious Education Forum/

Religious Topics /

Religious Debates /

Would an Abrahamic God deserve our forgiveness?

​

and of your own volition I presume. Your protest is like entering a lions den and complaining there are lions in it.

 

[Thoughts]

The ability to control your life isn't yours. Your parents made you. So when you look in the mirror, you see them. And when you do anything, your parents give you the ability to do so. If you were born as a horse, you'd look and act like your parents who were horses.

Muhammed was no greater than you, or his parents. God didn't make the resurrection for punishment of His creation, He made it for the reconciliation to life.

No one, not even Muhammed, could escape sin and death. Do you know why?

If the parents give us abilities so why orphan have same ability

I am not talking about learning and teaching

I am talking about different kind of abilities


For example,

God gave kids the ability to feel hunger

We don't teach kids the ability to get hungry


Notice I said control our abilities

Control our desires


If the life is not ours

So why some people born as Christian and when they grow up

They became Hindu

That mean life is ours

We control it with our actions which we learn it by our parents

------

Now you r discussing different topic

You said "Muhammad were not greater than me

This is your opinion and not a fact
What Muhammad accomplished is more than just wards


He brings arab out of the darknesses into the light through Quran

Arabs were killing their kids before Islam
Because of poverty
Muhammad peace be upon him asked them to stop such thing

Arabs were treating women as rubbish and they
Permitted her to inherit but prophet Muhammad pbuh
Gave her all her rights

Arabs before Islam were worshipping status made
From rocks

They make their gods by their hands and worship it

some time they make their god from dates
So once they get hungry and they don't have food
They eat it

Imagine they eat their god

Their god disable

They worship rock that can't benefit them or harm them

And many other accomplishment which are not countable

----

U said Muhammad dies

It is a fact

Muhammad is not a god he is a human

human are creatures and all creature will die with no exception

We don't say that John is better than Joseph because he live longer life



I wish if readers get benefit from what I do post

 

[idav]

"If there is a god he will have to beg for my forgiveness." -quote found etched into the wall of a Nazi Concentration Camp

A peculiar quote which makes one reflect. If a God does exist in an omniscient, omnipresent ect ect manner, would this God deserve to forgiven for the act of creating a world in which such great suffering is wrought upon so many? Regardless of whether humanity causes this in a 'Fall' would he be justified in not only creating us, but then judging us for our actions in what some would deem as a hell?
Now this question I suppose goes back to one of the primary questions in human existence, is life worth living? Would it be better to live and suffer, or never to have lived, and never have existed in a state which could perceive any good or any bad? I myself am conflicted on this manner. Kahlil Gibran once said that pain hollows us out so that we may be filled, but wouldn't some people be hollowed out till there was nothing left and never filled with anything? Your thoughts?

Reminds me of the saying, "better to have love and lost than to never have loved at all". Life is a rare treasure in which the experience is worth anything life wants to throw at us. God can always be "forgiven" for giving us life however I have reservations for such forgiveness for a god that allows such horrible suffering but something tells me it can't be avoided. With a God being all and within all means God would be suffering right along side with us

 

[Thoughts]

Sorry I am not intending to talk behalf ibrahamic religion

But I want to clarify general fact about Allah as I mentioned

 

[Sleeppy]

If the parents give us abilities so why orphan have same ability

I am not talking about learning and teaching

I am talking about different kind of abilities


For example,

God gave kids the ability to feel hunger

We don't teach kids the ability to get hungry


Notice I said control our abilities

Control our desires


If the life is not ours

So why some people born as Christian and when they grow up

They became Hindu

That mean life is ours

We control it with our actions which we learn it by our parents

------

Now you r discussing different topic

You said "Muhammad were not greater than me

This is your opinion and not a fact
What Muhammad accomplished is more than just wards


He brings arab out of the darknesses into the light through Quran

Arabs were killing their kids before Islam
Because of poverty
Muhammad peace be upon him asked them to stop such thing

Arabs were treating women as rubbish and they
Permitted her to inherit but prophet Muhammad pbuh
Gave her all her rights

Arabs before Islam were worshipping status made
From rocks

They make their gods by their hands and worship it

some time they make their god from dates
So once they get hungry and they don't have food
They eat it

Imagine they eat their god

Their god disable

They worship rock that can't benefit them or harm them

And many other accomplishment which are not countable

----

U said Muhammad dies

It is a fact

Muhammad is not a god he is a human

human are creatures and all creature will die with no exception

We don't say that John is better than Joseph because he live longer life



I wish if readers get benefit from what I do post

Do you have hunger like humans have, or like ants? Doesn't an ant receive hunger like the ants who birthed it? And don't they eat similar things? All of this is from God.

Do you know the similarities between Christianity and Hinduism? Do you know the differences?

Do you know the similarities between your mother and your father? Do you know the differences?

Do you know the similarities between you and your mother? And between you and your father?

God knows all these things. You do not. Neither do the ants know all these things in relation to their parents. None of the ants are exactly like their parents. They are the result of a combination. We call this combination a marriage, and a sign of peace. This is from God.

One ant can't go to another ant, his brother, and say that he was the only offspring.

So why do people change religions and ideas? Because their is One God, who like the ants, made old and young brothers, close and distant cousins, and teachers as well as pupils. Your ideas are different from your wife, or husband, so that you may do the command of God and create peace in your marriage. Then you share in the glory of God.

Muhammed, peace to all Muslims, was a great leader. But he stood on the Earth as a human being. And he used lies to both your benefit and demise. But, many of the prophets did the same.

You are a greater leader than him. God put your brain in your head, and Muhammad's in his. He put you in your mother's womb, not Muhammad. So your mother may not bless him more than you, or she sins against you, and against God's peace. And if you bless Muhammad more than your mother, you sin against your mother, your father, yourself, your siblings, and everything you do.

And if I've blessed any other human, living or dead, above you and myself now, I sin. God sent you to me. And me to you. So, though Muhammed and Jesus are witnesses, we are the two speaking and able to make peace where we are. This is from God.

So, if you don't lie, and bring only benefit, never demise, to the creation of God, then God Himself is your messenger!

 

[Thoughts]

You are explaining what I said about Allah who gave us abilities

------

I don't agree with you that Muhammad did said lies

It is you

Again and again you put your opinion

Here we are debating about facts and not opinion

Muhammad enlightened people about worshipping statues

They were worshiping what they made

Imagine !

they create their own god

Unbelievable

Statues can't hurt them and still they worship it

Statues can't help them but they still worshipping it

Their god are disable can't protect their life

So any one can destroy it

Dogs pop on (statues )god and still the god (statues)
Can't protect him self

So that is not god because god is not disable


People become greater due to their accomplishment
Not because they have brain

If I am good in debating it is not because I have mind
We all have mind but it is because what I have learned
From Islam

For example all human being have brain but there many
Who still worship statues or cows

Not all people think most of them worship
What ever their parents worship


We all have abilities to think but
Not all of us used his brain to invent
Something

 

[ChristineES]

And coal isn't black.


Laying out the facts of a religion amounts to attacking it, particularly when the issue is the very nature of the Christian god, as laid out in the OP?

"would this God deserve to forgiven for the act of creating a world in which such great suffering is wrought upon so many?"
​

Not to be harsh, but if you can't stand the heat . . . . And you do realize, do you not, that you are in an debate room.

"Religious Education Forum/

Religious Topics /

Religious Debates /

Would an Abrahamic God deserve our forgiveness?

​

and of your own volition I presume. Your protest is like entering a lions den and complaining there are lions in it.

I am done debating this. I was not feeling the way you assume. I tell you one more time that I was not angry, that I was not irritated. I am asking you now to stop responding to this, please. I get frustrated when people put emotions on me that I was not feeling and then keep on telling me "Yes, you did so feel that way". I get the feeling you WANT to believe I was upset.

 

[nazz]

I get frustrated when people put emotions on me that I was not feeling and then keep on telling me "Yes, you did so feel that way".

I do too!

 

[Skwim]

First of all, you can say what you want about Christians, but Judaism is a non-proselytizing religion, so to say that we should "stop the sales pitch" is the first part of this thread that makes no sense.

So it has been for some time. But times are a changin'.

"At the 121st meeting of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the group decided that the open spiritual marketplace of America and the reality of increasing intermarriage between Jews and gentiles demanded the change. A press release from the meeting included the following:

"While in the past the Reform rabbis focused discussion on how to prevent intermarriage, the CCAR today affirmed that intermarriage is a given and should be approached with the goal of engaging intermarried families in Jewish life and living. Rabbis can and should work to improve the effectiveness of their efforts to encourage intermarried people to embrace Judaism for themselves and their children."

The statement goes on to stress "the importance of encouraging in-marriage (marriage between Jews) and conversion of non-Jewish spouses".
Source: Should Jews proselytize? Should anyone?
​

And from Is Judaism a Proselytizing Religion?

"But one must first define the amorphous term "proselytizing,"which in some circles is a "bad word." Because of this cultural baggage and the complex, sometimes conflicting ways in which various traditions express their perspectives on the "other," historians of missionary movements argue vociferously over what constitutes proselytizing. For present purposes, let us call it an eagerness to attract Gentile converts, including concerted institutional or individual efforts to draw in new members through a relatively easy conversion process. Under this definition, one might indeed call the modern non-Orthodox initiatives a kind of missionizing, especially when added to independent "population growth" projects advocated by the late Gary Tobin and others."
​

Next, to ask if a God, who we believe is perfect in every way, would deserve forgiveness, which would require doing wrong in the first place, makes no sense for so many reasons that I just don't feel I need to explain.

Understood. No one is holding gun to your head.

Now if you were indeed one to believe in God, yet believe him to be the cruel egotistic being that you portray him to be, then he would never ask for your forgiveness, now would he? Again, this question makes no sense.

I assume you're referring to Raban's question, " Would an Abrahamic God deserve our forgiveness?" which isn't predicated on god asking for forgiveness, but on whether he deserves it. Kind of a difference there.

PS: It's always very refreshing to see others teaching us about OUR literature.

And not only refreshing, but sometimes begging for it. You do know what denial is, don't you?

"[Denial is] perhaps the most primitive and best known defense mechanism. People simply ignore unpleasant facts, they filter out data and content that contravene their self-image, prejudices, and preconceived notions of others and of the world."
source​

 

[Skwim]

I am done debating this. I was not feeling the way you assume. I tell you one more time that I was not angry, that I was not irritated..

I never said you were angry or irritated. If you go back and read my words CAREFULLY, you'll see that I said in response to your reply to मैत्रावरुणिः that "It comes across as indignant resentment; pique." "IT COMES ACROSS AS . . ." Please tell me you understand the difference in this phrase and something like "You are . . . " If you don't then maybe someone can explain it to you.

I then continued with the matter of the rhetorical question I originally asked in post 36, "God's behavior a sore spot? If so, I can't blame you." Now you said this wasn't the case. However, you're curt response to मैत्रावरुणिः belies this, which is why I asked about your response to his simple surprise and question with what I consider to be a derisive reply.

I made absolutely no mention at all about you being angry, irritated, nor did I put any emotions on you. I told you how you came across to me, not that you were X,Y, and Z *sigh*

I get the feeling you WANT to believe I was upset.

How odd. Frankly, I don't think many people care that much about others around here to want them to be anything.

One last thing. You said " I am asking you now to stop responding to this." As a member of RF staff are you somehow obligated to have the last word in discussions? If not, why must your word be the last around here? Of course if it's a psychological or emotional matter with you I'll certainly let it drop right now. If not, care to explain this most unusual request?

 

[Astravalon]

If a God does exist in an omniscient, omnipresent ect ect manner, would this God deserve to forgiven for the act of creating a world in which such great suffering is wrought upon so many? Regardless of whether humanity causes this in a 'Fall' would he be justified in not only creating us, but then judging us for our actions in what some would deem as a hell?
Now this question I suppose goes back to one of the primary questions in human existence, is life worth living? Would it be better to live and suffer, or never to have lived, and never have existed in a state which could perceive any good or any bad? I myself am conflicted on this manner. Kahlil Gibran once said that pain hollows us out so that we may be filled, but wouldn't some people be hollowed out till there was nothing left and never filled with anything? Your thoughts?

I think it depends on how one thinks we got here, and why we are here.

Recently, as in over the past few years, I've become increasingly convinced that our involvement in this world could just as easily be voluntary. I'm not sure why I assumed that our being brought into this world involuntarily was the only possible explanation for things.

This is just my own speculation, but, rather than it being a case of God tossing us, against our will, into calamity (in which case yeah, I'd probably struggle with forgiving Him too!), it could be a case that we are eternal beings whose existences transcend whichever physical form we take, and we choose to come here to experience what is evidently the very (very) wide range of things this particular world has to offer, knowing that, in the end, we ourselves come out unscathed when our current 'tour' here is done. It's akin to the whole 'all the world's a stage and we are the actors' model. We play 'good guys' and 'bad guys' and everything in between, but that's just our roles. Our true, higher, selves are just peachy keen, and we have no enemies among us beyond what we perceive in this realm based on whatever temporary roles we're assuming at the time.

Of course, the natural question to ask in light of this is, "Who would volunteer to leave the comforts of Paradise to come down here and experience traumatic events (or even the merely mundane annoying ones)?" Based on my theory, I would have to say that, apparently, we humans love a challenge. It's likely the same reason as why someone would leave the comforts of sitting at home on a comfy couch eating chocolates just so they can face the dangers of climbing Mt. Everest, or donning a parachute and jumping out of a perfectly good airplane for what they perceive as the 'thrills' therein. Those things aren't my cup of tea -- they would likely traumatize me -- but that doesn't mean they aren't anyone else's cup of tea that they wouldn't be thrilled to experience them.

Again, this just speculation, but I personally have found it far more empowering than the usual, more hopeless-sounding fare involving victim/villain dualism that I used to assume was Gospel Truth on the matter.