Would foreknowledge contradict free will?

[Jeremiah61]

You could state the matter another way. If you picture Time as a straight line along whichy we have to travel, then you must picture God as the plane on which the line is drawn. We come to parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A before we can get to B and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all around, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

 

[methylatedghosts]

You could state the matter another way. If you picture Time as a straight line along whichy we have to travel, then you must picture God as the plane on which the line is drawn. We come to parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A before we can get to B and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all around, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

So is this one single line? or does each point (a, b, c, etc) have deviations. If that's that case, I can agree. A single straight line is not true free will. We may have the illusion of it, but in fact, we are only going through the motions as though we had the option of choosing another, when we never were going to anyway.

 

[Wandered Off]

God, from above or outside or all around, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

It's a cool analogy that kind of evokes panentheism.

 

[JerryL]

So is this one single line? or does each point (a, b, c, etc) have deviations. If that's that case, I can agree. A single straight line is not true free will. We may have the illusion of it, but in fact, we are only going through the motions as though we had the option of choosing another, when we never were going to anyway.

Problem exists in your pyramid analogy.

If God can see the path through the pyramid we are going to take, then you can remove the pyramid and leave only the path.. the straight line.

To put in another way, can you choose what you will wear yesterday? No? why? because the outcome is already known. If God knows all outcomes from before you weer born, then choice is an illusion.

 

[Ulver]

There are some determinists who say that Free will is simple an awareness of other choices. Not an actual ability to make a choice purely void of "cause & effect".

 

[Pardus]

I know that being told the future does not change people from making stupid mistakes.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Problem exists in your pyramid analogy.

If God can see the path through the pyramid we are going to take, then you can remove the pyramid and leave only the path.. the straight line.

To put in another way, can you choose what you will wear yesterday? No? why? because the outcome is already known. If God knows all outcomes from before you weer born, then choice is an illusion.

No, all the different possible outcomes for example, you're 6 years old. God can see simultaneously, at 20years, you working in a road crew, you becoming a doctor, you being a builder etc etc etc. There are millions of possible outcomes, and God can see you in them all. Thus, the pyramid. When you get to 20years and begin work in a road crew, all the other options have dissapeared, because you chose to work in a road crew. You are still at the tip at the bottom, only now you, and God, can see a single line that is your life up until that point. What you wore yesterday is in that line - the past. The future is still a pyramid, only now it's smaller than when you were 6

 

[methylatedghosts]

What if the future is made up of an infinite number of possible paths, for each of which God knows exactly what the outcome would be, but doesn't know which one you'll pick? For example, God knows exactly what the future would look like if you made choice "A" and exactly what it would look like if you made choice "B", but doesn't know which you'll choose or how others will react. That kind of plays both sides of the argument... It gives the foreknowledge contingent an all-knowing image of God without surrendering free will, all in one convenient package. God specifically knows exactly what will happen and how IN EVERY POSSIBLE SITUATION and still retains the uncertainty about which of those completely known futures will occur. God doesn't have to know which one will occur to know EXACTLY what the future would look like. Foreknowledge proponents get their 'rewindable video' (an infinite number of them, in fact) and opponents get their free will. Win win! : hamster :


OK, it's all hypothetical, but any thoughts? Am I out in left field again?

This is what I'm trying to say with my pyramid analogy

 

[Willamena]

There are some determinists who say that Free will is simple an awareness of other choices. Not an actual ability to make a choice purely void of "cause & effect".

Well, that's fine, but then they make it so the definition of "free will" has nothing to do with "will".

 

[Willamena]

I know that being told the future does not change people from making stupid mistakes.

That's because people are not told knowledge about the future, but predictions.

 

[Willamena]

No, all the different possible outcomes for example, you're 6 years old. God can see simultaneously, at 20years, you working in a road crew, you becoming a doctor, you being a builder etc etc etc. There are millions of possible outcomes, and God can see you in them all. Thus, the pyramid. When you get to 20years and begin work in a road crew, all the other options have dissapeared, because you chose to work in a road crew. You are still at the tip at the bottom, only now you, and God, can see a single line that is your life up until that point. What you wore yesterday is in that line - the past. The future is still a pyramid, only now it's smaller than when you were 6

Then you are proposing a God that predicts the future, rather than knows it; or alternately that we are not real. If God doesn't know which of the possible paths we will choose, then he doesn't know the future.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Then you are proposing a God that predicts the future, rather than knows it; or alternately that we are not real. If God doesn't know which of the possible paths we will choose, then he doesn't know the future.

I can go with that. I guess most people's pyramid would look generally the same. And as we make choices each persons pyramid begins to look different.

 

[Willamena]

I can go with that. I guess most people's pyramid would look generally the same. And as we make choices each persons pyramid begins to look different.

Then god has no special ability above ours. We, too, are able to predict the future.

 

[Wandered Off]

One upside of that might be free will, right?

 

[methylatedghosts]

Agree with both of you.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Since at some point I've already written this and you have responded to it and we have concluded this discussion I'm just going to finish my coffee and enjoy the morning.

That being said, you don't have free will. Does that make it better? For example, suppose you had the desire to become a dog, can you change into one?

Finally, supposing what the nature and reality of a God who exists outside of time might be when you can't possibly know this seems to be an excercise in pure fantasy (unless God tells you what it's like, in which case you have to take by faith since you can't experience it as long as you are locked into time).

 

[JerryL]

No, all the different possible outcomes for example, you're 6 years old. God can see simultaneously, at 20years, you working in a road crew, you becoming a doctor, you being a builder etc etc etc.

But he doesn't know which one you will actually do? Then he cannot see the future.

You are still at the tip at the bottom, only now you, and God, can see a single line that is your life up until that point. What you wore yesterday is in that line - the past. The future is still a pyramid, only now it's smaller than when you were 6

Which means that the future does not exist. It's not possible to see with certainty something which is uncertain.

Either the choices you make are determanist or they are not. If they are determinist, then the fact that you've not yet made them is merely a technicalilty (like the fact that you've not yet seen the end of the movie doesn't mean that there's more than one possible ending. The only possible ending is the one on the DVD).

Does a movie have free will? What's the difference?

If, on the other hand, the ending isn't fixed, then foreknowledge is impossible (how can you know how a movie ends if it doesn't have an ending?)

 

[methylatedghosts]

But he doesn't know which one you will actually do? Then he cannot see the future.

Which means that the future does not exist. It's not possible to see with certainty something which is uncertain.

Either the choices you make are determanist or they are not. If they are determinist, then the fact that you've not yet made them is merely a technicalilty (like the fact that you've not yet seen the end of the movie doesn't mean that there's more than one possible ending. The only possible ending is the one on the DVD).

Does a movie have free will? What's the difference?

If, on the other hand, the ending isn't fixed, then foreknowledge is impossible (how can you know how a movie ends if it doesn't have an ending?)

I agree, you make an excellent point. I change my stance to "God doesn't know the future, but knows what possibilities there are, and thus can only predict the future. We ourselves actually create our own by what we do in the present, and what we have done in the past.

I stand corrected

 

[Truth_Faith13]

If you foretold that your friend was going to be involved in a car accident when you lended him your car - would you say "oh well thats the future, what will be will be?" or will you not lend him your car, therefore changing the future by your own free will. So if foreknowledge did exist I think we would still have free will also!

 

[cardero]

Would foreknowledge contradict free will?
Think of all the best advice that you have given someone who has not taken it but later discovered you were correct and you have your answer.