Would men die for something they did not believe?

[4troof]

Men die everyday for something they believe in.
Would they die for something they did not believe in?

How would a non christian explain why the apostles of Jesus died gruesome deaths saying they had seen Jesus killed and resurrected three days later? :sad:

 

[Storm]

I don't think that anyone disputes that they believed it. However, their belief is not proof that it was true.

 

[4troof]

If it was not true, were they all fooled?

 

[Storm]

I don't think they were fooled, per se. I think the whole thing has been mythologized so heavily that we don't know what the actual apostles thought. But my Christian history is rusty. Give me an example to work with.

 

[4troof]

Well, the whole New Testement was written by eyewitnesses, all saying he was killed and resurrected.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Men die everyday for something they believe in.
Would they die for something they did not believe in?

How would a non christian explain why the apostles of Jesus died gruesome deaths saying they had seen Jesus killed and resurrected three days later? :sad:

Did they?

 

[Father Heathen]

Men die everyday for something they believe in.
Would they die for something they did not believe in?

How would a non christian explain why the apostles of Jesus died gruesome deaths saying they had seen Jesus killed and resurrected three days later? :sad:

How would a non Muslim explain why the 9/11 hijackers die gruesome deaths saying that there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet?

Do you have a point?

 

[oldcajun]

Men die everyday for something they believe in.
Would they die for something they did not believe in?

How would a non christian explain why the apostles of Jesus died gruesome deaths saying they had seen Jesus killed and resurrected three days later? :sad:

You know this is a question that will eventually be muted by a claim that the Bible is a myth and Jesus is a myth so why continue? You can't use the Bible to prove anything to a nonbeliever. They don't accept the Bible as having any authority.

 

[Storm]

Well, the whole New Testement was written by eyewitnesses, all saying he was killed and resurrected.

Only in Christian mythology. Actual study into the history of the Bible paints quite a different picture. FOr instance, iirc, the earliest extant Gospel is that of Peter, dated to roughly 60 CE.

ETA: Also, the earliest extant Gospel (whether I recalled the name correctly or not) has no mention of the Resurrection. It ends with the women finding the tomb empty, "and they were afraid."

 

[Storm]

You know this is a question that will eventually be muted by a claim that the Bible is a myth and Jesus is a myth so why continue? You can't use the Bible to prove anything to a nonbeliever. They don't accept the Bible as having any authority.

Not divine authority, no. The Bible is one of the great religious texts, and should therefore be respected as such, but it is a product of man's search for God.

 

[4troof]

How would a non Muslim explain why the 9/11 hijackers die gruesome deaths saying that there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet?

Do you have a point?

Like I said, men die everyday for something they believe in. Even if that something is not true.
But the apostles died saying they saw him killed and resurrected. Are you saying they did not see this? Are they lying? Are they crazy?

 

[Cacafire]

So what are you saying? Christians die for their beliefs, so we non-christians should believe and hopefully meet the same fate someday?

I believe I shall pass.

 

[4troof]

Only in Christian mythology. Actual study into the history of the Bible paints quite a different picture. FOr instance, iirc, the earliest extant Gospel is that of Peter, dated to roughly 60 CE.

ETA: Also, the earliest extant Gospel (whether I recalled the name correctly or not) has no mention of the Resurrection. It ends with the women finding the tomb empty, "and they were afraid."

I dont believe any of the gospels end that way at all. They all continue to tell the story of Jesus walking the earth for 40 more days.

 

[4troof]

So what are you saying? Christians die for their beliefs, so we non-christians should believe and hopefully meet the same fate someday?

I believe I shall pass.

No, I am just asking the question. Were these apostles fooled, or are they liers?

 

[Father Heathen]

Like I said, men die everyday for something they believe in. Even if that something is not true.
But the apostles died saying they saw him killed and resurrected. Are you saying they did not see this? Are they lying? Are they crazy?

The hobbits saw Gandalf fall within the Mines of Moria while battling a balrog, only to find him resurrected in the Fanghorn Forest. Were the hobbits telling the truth?

 

[4troof]

Did they?

Did they not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I dont believe any of the gospels end that way at all. They all continue to tell the story of Jesus walking the earth for 40 more days.

The oldest Gospel is usually considered to be Mark. Mark 16:4-8 is as follows (NIV):

4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "
8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

The chapter continues up to verse 20, but the New International Version has the following note:

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Did they not?

I think it's in doubt. IMO, it's not a given that the events recorded in the Bible literally happened.

 

[4troof]

I think it's in doubt. IMO, it's not a given that the events recorded in the Bible literally happened.

But, my original question was why would all of the apostles (including Paul- an ex Pharasee) go to their gruesome deaths saying they saw a resurrected Jesus?

I hope you would not respond by saying there is no proof of who wrote the New Testement. There are more manuscripts of this book around the earth that are within 100 years of the original writings, that you cannot debate that seriously.

 

[Cacafire]

No, I am just asking the question. Were these apostles fooled, or are they liers?

They were fooled.

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Get over it.