Wow, all twelve?
Were the Jews that could not produce a body to shut them up fooled too?
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Would men die for something they did not believe?
- Thread starter 4troof
- Start date
Wow, all twelve?
Were the Jews that could not produce a body to shut them up fooled too?
Paul's a bit of a special case, isn't he? Never meeting Jesus in the flesh, his belief was based on an apparition (hallucination?) that appeared before him but was invisible to the people he was with.
Actually, I'm thinking more that there is positive evidence (i.e. not just conclusions drawn from the absence of evidence) that indicates a source for the New Testament other than literal events in first-century Judea.
To say that the Gospel is a literal history of a man named Jesus who lived, died and was resurrected in Judea 2000 years ago is to say that the seemingly strong links between the New Testament and other, earlier religious beliefs* are nothing more than odd coincidences.
*in particular, I'm thinking of Egyptian mythology that depicts the god Horus (son of the chief God, Osiris) as:
- descending to Earth to live in human form
- having twelve human apostles, including fishermen
- bringing Al-Asar (pretty close to "Lazarus", don't you think?) back from the dead before Mary and Martha
- ascending to Heaven, where he is seated at the right hand of his father and will judge the living and the dead
Also, there's what I see as hints of Dharmic beliefs in the New Testament as well:
- the sudden change from Jewish monotheism to something to a triune godhead very similar to the Trimurti
- an uncanny parallel between Christian and Dharmic beliefs, though with some modification. For example, the New Testament describes how we can be freed from the Old Law by the sacrifice and efforts of Christ, while Hindu scriptures describe how we can be freed from the Wheel of Life by personal sacrifice and effort.
They didn't. There is absolutely no historical evidence to suggest that any of the apostles died a martyr's death, there's at least one peice of historical evidence that Matthew (at least) died of natural causes (which disputes the various traditions of his martyrdom), the traditions in regards to the matyrdom of the various apostles are contradictory, and more-over the only apostle that the bible itself claims died as a martyr is James.
The traditional martydom of the apostles is Christian folklore and as I've said, depending on which regional tradition you want to look at, the traditions contradict each other.
Engyo
Prince of Dorkness!
I know lots of soldiers have died in wars they didn't believe in.
Actually, I'm thinking more that there is positive evidence (i.e. not just conclusions drawn from the absence of evidence) that indicates a source for the New Testament other than literal events in first-century Judea.
To say that the Gospel is a literal history of a man named Jesus who lived, died and was resurrected in Judea 2000 years ago is to say that the seemingly strong links between the New Testament and other, earlier religious beliefs* are nothing more than odd coincidences.
None of these earlier beliefs had men going to their deaths though saying they saw a resurrected man. Since we have enough ancient manuscripts written in different languages to piece together the original letters, and have been shown historically (from outside sources) that they were written before the destruction of the temple in AD70, how do you explain these guys going to their deaths saying they actually saw a resurrected man with their own eyes?
*in particular, I'm thinking of Egyptian mythology that depicts the god Horus (son of the chief God, Osiris) as:
- descending to Earth to live in human form
- having twelve human apostles, including fishermen
- bringing Al-Asar (pretty close to "Lazarus", don't you think?) back from the dead before Mary and Martha
- ascending to Heaven, where he is seated at the right hand of his father and will judge the living and the dead
Also, there's what I see as hints of Dharmic beliefs in the New Testament as well:
- the sudden change from Jewish monotheism to something to a triune godhead very similar to the Trimurti
- an uncanny parallel between Christian and Dharmic beliefs, though with some modification. For example, the New Testament describes how we can be freed from the Old Law by the sacrifice and efforts of Christ, while Hindu scriptures describe how we can be freed from the Wheel of Life by personal sacrifice and effort.[/quote]
To say that the Gospel is a literal history of a man named Jesus who lived, died and was resurrected in Judea 2000 years ago is to say that the seemingly strong links between the New Testament and other, earlier religious beliefs* are nothing more than odd coincidences.
None of these earlier beliefs had men going to their deaths though saying they saw a resurrected man. Since we have enough ancient manuscripts written in different languages to piece together the original letters, and have been shown historically (from outside sources) that they were written before the destruction of the temple in AD70, how do you explain these guys going to their deaths saying they actually saw a resurrected man with their own eyes?
*in particular, I'm thinking of Egyptian mythology that depicts the god Horus (son of the chief God, Osiris) as:
- descending to Earth to live in human form
- having twelve human apostles, including fishermen
- bringing Al-Asar (pretty close to "Lazarus", don't you think?) back from the dead before Mary and Martha
- ascending to Heaven, where he is seated at the right hand of his father and will judge the living and the dead
Also, there's what I see as hints of Dharmic beliefs in the New Testament as well:
- the sudden change from Jewish monotheism to something to a triune godhead very similar to the Trimurti
- an uncanny parallel between Christian and Dharmic beliefs, though with some modification. For example, the New Testament describes how we can be freed from the Old Law by the sacrifice and efforts of Christ, while Hindu scriptures describe how we can be freed from the Wheel of Life by personal sacrifice and effort.[/quote]
I suppose not, but they do speak against the literal truth of what you're suggesting.
Who do you think went to their deaths for this, and under what circumstances?
The only one I'm familiar with from the Bible is Paul, and hopefully you'll agree that the Bible never mentions him seeing or meeting Jesus before his death. If we accept the Biblical account as true, then what he saw has all the earmarks of a hallucination. If we don't take the Biblical account as true, then, well, what's the point of debating what the implications of its truth might be?
How the two things compare depends on your point of view, I suppose, but his post does directly answer your original question:
Again; there's nothing in the New Testament that suggests any of the apostles died a martyr's death except James. Discussing the validity of the NT is a moot point for sakes of this topic.
Presenting contradictory accounts as evidence of fabrication is not the same as drawing conclusions from lack of evidence (nor is it even close).
4tfoof said:
Name one that supports your argument.
4troof said:
Name the letters, how they pertain to the topic, and list these alledged outside sources. Otherwise your statement means nothing.
4troof said:
I already have; it didn't happen. This whole thread is predicated on a strawman.
Engyo
Prince of Dorkness!
The OP asked if a man would die for something he didn't believe in, no? I answered your first question, without regard to your second. Were they meant to be taken only together? That wasn't explicit.
Who do you think went to their deaths for this, and under what circumstances?
The only one I'm familiar with from the Bible is Paul, and hopefully you'll agree that the Bible never mentions him seeing or meeting Jesus before his death. If we accept the Biblical account as true, then what he saw has all the earmarks of a hallucination. If we don't take the Biblical account as true, then, well, what's the point of debating what the implications of its truth might be?[/quote]
Peter, Matthew, John, Paul (who most likely was one of the leaders in arresting Jesus in the first place) just to name a few were all put to their deaths claiming that they saw this man killed and then roaming the earth again. These folks were stoned to death, beheaded...etc telling a lie? All they had to do to live was renounce what they were saying...they saw a dead man rise.
The only one I'm familiar with from the Bible is Paul, and hopefully you'll agree that the Bible never mentions him seeing or meeting Jesus before his death. If we accept the Biblical account as true, then what he saw has all the earmarks of a hallucination. If we don't take the Biblical account as true, then, well, what's the point of debating what the implications of its truth might be?[/quote]
Peter, Matthew, John, Paul (who most likely was one of the leaders in arresting Jesus in the first place) just to name a few were all put to their deaths claiming that they saw this man killed and then roaming the earth again. These folks were stoned to death, beheaded...etc telling a lie? All they had to do to live was renounce what they were saying...they saw a dead man rise.
UnityNow101
Well-Known Member
Who knows? Maybe they did see Jesus after he had risen from the dead. Maybe it is all a myth and nobody seen anything. Can we know today with certainty whether they did see a risen dead man or if any of this is to be believed? How do we know that Jesus didn't actually survive the crucifixion and was merely awakening from his decreased level of awareness? Did Jesus survive and then head to Kashmir, India? None of this can be known..So pick your favorite scenario and call it truth. That is the way that we work as a species.
What are you basing all this on besides nostolgic attachment to tradition?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
people die for thier beliefs all the time... many of these beliefs we find... well silly.
Jonestown
Heaven's Gate
Order of the Solar Temple
Branch Davidians....
and so on.
Were all these people telling a lie?
wa:do
Jonestown
Heaven's Gate
Order of the Solar Temple
Branch Davidians....
and so on.
Were all these people telling a lie?
wa:do
people die for thier beliefs all the time... many of these beliefs we find... well silly.
Jonestown
Heaven's Gate
Order of the Solar Temple
Branch Davidians....
and so on.
Were all these people telling a lie?
Did any of these people die saying they saw a man killed and then resurrected?
Jonestown
Heaven's Gate
Order of the Solar Temple
Branch Davidians....
and so on.
Were all these people telling a lie?
Did any of these people die saying they saw a man killed and then resurrected?
What are you basing all this on besides nostolgic attachment to tradition?
I am basing it on that there were hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw a previously dead man walking the earth again.
Any kind of historical research would tell you that what was written was written by the people that says they are writing it, and during the time it is said to have been written. Big difference between the writing of the New T. and any traditional/nostalgic stories.
I am basing it on that there were hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw a previously dead man walking the earth again.
Any kind of historical research would tell you that what was written was written by the people that says they are writing it, and during the time it is said to have been written. Big difference between the writing of the New T. and any traditional/nostalgic stories.
Hey 4troof; do us all a favor and start using the quote button (bottom left hand corner of your screen).
I know you're getting around to addressing my posts. I'll wait.
Again; name one manuscript that supports your original point. We've already established that there's nothing in the NT that supports your argument so referring back to any alledged evidence of the NT's validity is just stalling and is completely besides the point..
The quote from 4troof there was actually me. Looks like he's still figuring out the quote function.
Where does it say that these men were put to death for claiming that Jesus died and was resurrected? Chapter and verse, please.
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