Would the world really be a better place?

[Quirkybird]

I would have been happier as a child if I had never heard of Jesus and the nasty 'born again' dogma, that is for sure.

 

[nilsz]

I think minds unbound by religious doctrine can be more volatile, as evidenced by the major conflicts of the previous century. If, hypothetically, all of the world's religion was to suddenly disappear, and no secular education appeared in its place, then I suspect the world would quickly become rather unpleasant for a while.

I have great faith in that education is the big solution towards making the world a better place. Being who I am, I believe a secular education can be better than any religious education, but I also believe that neither are worse than no education.

 

[Quirkybird]

I suspect the bad done in the name of religion probably out ways the good.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think minds unbound by religious doctrine can be more volatile, as evidenced by the major conflicts of the previous century.

Uh?

No idea of what you are talking about, sorry. Would you like to elaborate?

Far as I can tell, there were no significant conflicts in the 20th century that serve as good evidence that lack of religious doctrine leads to "volatile minds".

If anything, we have good evidence (mostly from before the 20th century, but we could also mention the Axis powers, particularly Italy) of the exact opposite.

If, hypothetically, all of the world's religion was to suddenly disappear, and no secular education appeared in its place, then I suspect the world would quickly become rather unpleasant for a while.

But we do have secular education.

 

[Iti oj]

Since when was organized religion a problem?

See, the trouble with humans is that they keep on supposing that reality ought to be some other way than it is. And because reality inevitably fails to conform to their expectations, they label something in reality as a "problem." If it isn't one thing, it's another. Humans patently refuse to accept reality for what it is without judging it or demanding it to be something else. Until we can do this, current "problems" will inevitably be replaced with other "problems."

This is the biggest none answer.

 

[SkylarHunter]

If, hypothetically, all of the world's religion was to suddenly disappear, and no secular education appeared in its place, then I suspect the world would quickly become rather unpleasant for a while.

I have great faith in that education is the big solution towards making the world a better place. Being who I am, I believe a secular education can be better than any religious education, but I also believe that neither are worse than no education.

You made some good points and I agree that secular education is essential (either you have a religion or not) but education needs to reach everyone. Secular education will only make a difference when it talks louder than tradition.
As long as there are parts of the world where people are aloud to burn their daughters because they want to be free to make their own decisions or where people can be stoned to death because they had sexual intercourse outside of marriage (some of them were raped but that isn't taken into consideration), or where one group is considered superior to other because of their family origins or the color of their skin, society will never change.

 

[nilsz]

Uh?

No idea of what you are talking about, sorry. Would you like to elaborate?

Far as I can tell, there were no significant conflicts in the 20th century that serve as good evidence that lack of religious doctrine leads to "volatile minds".

If anything, we have good evidence (mostly from before the 20th century, but we could also mention the Axis powers, particularly Italy) of the exact opposite.

What I had in mind was Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, which both to some extent rejected religion in favour of secular ideologies, and performed millions of mass murders in their name. You may argue that these ideologies were as dogmatic as religions can be, which is true, but these "religions" had never been seen operating a stable government.

I argue that the people whom these ideologies appealed to, and allowed them playing field, were receptive to them in large part because they had not gone through an education that better enabled them to pass a balanced judgement. If you merely remove religion without replacing it with secular education, something worse than either may appear in its place.

But we do have secular education.

Unfortunately, it can't be mobilized in an instant.

 

[LuisDantas]

What I had in mind was Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, which both to some extent rejected religion in favour of secular ideologies,

It is at best arguable whether Nazism was secular.

It has clear Christian inspiration, to the extent of making a point of persecuting the Jewish People specifically and using Christian symbols. To say nothing of its clearly messianic attitude.

If anything, WW 2 is a warning against the dangers of organized religion and its interference in politics. It is a bit more clear in the relationship between Japan and State Shinto and Italy and the Catholic Church, but Nazi Germany is hardly established as a secular state either.

and performed millions of mass murders in their name. You may argue that these ideologies were as dogmatic as religions can be, which is true, but these "religions" had never been seen operating a stable government.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I argue that the people whom these ideologies appealed to, and allowed them playing field, were receptive to them in large part because they had not gone through an education that better enabled them to pass a balanced judgement. If you merely remove religion without replacing it with secular education, something worse than either may appear in its place.

It is clearly not a matter of just having education. There are specific dangers in religious teachings that must be watched against - by the religious teachers themselves, more than by anyone else.

Unfortunately, it can't be mobilized in an instant.

Sorry, you lost me. What is it like to mobilize education (secular or otherwise)?

 

[DawudTalut]

Sometimes I wonder what will happen to organized religion. Thanks to a lot of people becoming atheists but mostly because of the horrendous things religions do everyday with God's will as an excuse (nevermind that God has nothing to do with it) thousands of people are leaving.
Do you think organized religion can survive or will it eventually disappear either due to lack of interest or by government intervention? After all, there are a lot of financial problems out there and religions are a great source of income - someone will realize that sooner or later.
If organized religion disappears or becomes banned, will the world really be a better place or will the problems simply be replaced by other problems?

Peace be on you. World is in disarray, you are right here. But deleting religion from map is not a right thing. Please imagine a country without any rule........Religion provides checks and tells morals. Religionless soviet era is not far from this time. As Ahmadiyya Muslim (who believes that Latter days promised reformer has come for peaceful spiritual reformation) understand that existing versions of religions are not addressing issues properly, leading to denying God altogether.

There are those religious people who have gone extremists or playing in their hands. Then there are those religious people within a religion who just call others 'kafirs' just because others do not agree with their interpretations.

Without God there is no peace.

 

[Quirkybird]

Peace be on you. World is in disarray, you are right here. But deleting religion from map is not a right thing. Please imagine a country without any rule........Religion provides checks and tells morals. Religionless soviet era is not far from this time. As Ahmadiyya Muslim (who believes that Latter days promised reformer has come for peaceful spiritual reformation) understand that existing versions of religions are not addressing issues properly, leading to denying God altogether.

There are those religious people who have gone extremists or playing in their hands. Then there are those religious people within a religion who just call others 'kafirs' just because others do not agree with their interpretations.

Without God there is no peace.

Religion can also provide nasty abuse both physical and mental!

 

[ChristineES]

Religion can also provide nasty abuse both physical and mental!

I haven't noticed that religion causes (well, not "cause" exactly) any more abuse than anything else. I heard financial difficulties were biggest contributors to child abuse. Maybe we need to outlaw money.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Evolution doesn't explain anything and blaming evil on genetics is simply cowardly. We are aware of the difference between right and wrong and if we chose to do wrong it's our responsibility.
When someone abuses a child, robs someone else's property or picks up a gun and starts killing people they know it's wrong but they do it anyway because they want to. They could have used self control, they could have walked away and done something else.
Hitler told his soldiers to kills minorities and they did. Don't tell me they all had a genetic condition.
I don't believe we are all 100% good or 100% evil but we all have a chance of making decisions that will affect others.
Unfortunately a lot of people don't have a conscience or a small bit of compassion to go with their freedom.

I'm not denying personal responsibility, just pointing out the evolutionary source of these tendencies in our species. We are an ape species that has a very violent history stretching back for millions of years.

But you come off as the sort that denies evolutionary theory so I don't expect you to understand anything I'm saying. I'm not interested in arguing with those who deny reality.

 

[Ingledsva]

Peace be on you. World is in disarray, you are right here. But deleting religion from map is not a right thing. Please imagine a country without any rule........Religion provides checks and tells morals. Religionless soviet era is not far from this time. As Ahmadiyya Muslim (who believes that Latter days promised reformer has come for peaceful spiritual reformation) understand that existing versions of religions are not addressing issues properly, leading to denying God altogether.

There are those religious people who have gone extremists or playing in their hands. Then there are those religious people within a religion who just call others 'kafirs' just because others do not agree with their interpretations.

Without God there is no peace.

We have no proof of God, and we know there can be peace without Religion.


Laws are created by humans.



*

 

[Pegg]

I know the prophecy in Revelation 17:1-4 but it's a metaphor. How do you know for sure it refers to religion and not something else?

In some way your are correct, it is a 'symbolic' image John sees. He is given a vision of a harlot riding a wild beast.
To John, the vision was a mystery for he himself wrote:

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and was adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls and had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her fornication. And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’ —Revelation 17:4-6a

John is given a little more information about her. He says she is dressed in “purple and scarlet,” the colors of royalty, and is “adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls.”
This indicates that she is in some form of rulership over people of the earth AND she is very wealthy.

The angel also identifies what each part of the vision represents:

Rev 17:9-11 9*“Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10*And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. 11*And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction

Rev 17;18*And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth

Here we see that the woman has a kingdom over the kings of the earth...hence this harlot has some authority or rulership over the worlds rulers/governments. Hence the harlot is not a political entity but has some control over political entities.

Rev 17:15*And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues
Here we learn that the harlot has control or influence over the people of earth...the 'waters'.


Who do you think has held great power over the lives of all mankind including a strong influence over the worlds rulers over the centuries and still today? Can you think of any other organization besides religion with such power?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The chances are null, religious freedom is one at large for most third world countries.

 

[Bismillah]

The world would be all the poorer for it. Besides there is an argument to be made that religion has a biological basis within humanity.

 

[Me Myself]

Sometimes I wonder what will happen to organized religion. Thanks to a lot of people becoming atheists but mostly because of the horrendous things religions do everyday with God's will as an excuse (nevermind that God has nothing to do with it) thousands of people are leaving.
Do you think organized religion can survive or will it eventually disappear either due to lack of interest or by government intervention? After all, there are a lot of financial problems out there and religions are a great source of income - someone will realize that sooner or later.
If organized religion disappears or becomes banned, will the world really be a better place or will the problems simply be replaced by other problems?

Banning religion would mean too many things at the same time.

For you to ban religion you need to clearly define religion. If yu want to ban e supernatural you need to clearly define it.

I think the only moment when religion may disappear is when humans do.

Even if you ban religion, it will remain as people who worship in hidden groups.

Pur very psychology naturally leans towards animism.

Sure, its ssible for one not to have a religion. But for a thousand people out of a thousand people not having a religion? You would need to go to an "irreligious united" meeting.

 

[Me Myself]

The chances are null, religious freedom is one at large for most third world countries.

And I can bet my sack that countries without it still have many religious people, and people organizing themselves in the dark to be religious.

 

[SkylarHunter]

In some way your are correct, it is a 'symbolic' image John sees. He is given a vision of a harlot riding a wild beast.
To John, the vision was a mystery for he himself wrote:

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and was adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls and had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her fornication. And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’ —Revelation 17:4-6a

John is given a little more information about her. He says she is dressed in “purple and scarlet,” the colors of royalty, and is “adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls.”
This indicates that she is in some form of rulership over people of the earth AND she is very wealthy.

The angel also identifies what each part of the vision represents:

Rev 17:9-11 9*“Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10*And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. 11*And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction

Rev 17;18*And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth

Here we see that the woman has a kingdom over the kings of the earth...hence this harlot has some authority or rulership over the worlds rulers/governments. Hence the harlot is not a political entity but has some control over political entities.

Rev 17:15*And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues
Here we learn that the harlot has control or influence over the people of earth...the 'waters'.


Who do you think has held great power over the lives of all mankind including a strong influence over the worlds rulers over the centuries and still today? Can you think of any other organization besides religion with such power?

It makes sense, but it would be so much easier if Revelation was clearer. A lot of people interpret John's visions he way they like...

 

[SkylarHunter]

Religion can also provide nasty abuse both physical and mental!

Or you could say that people cause abuse and blame religion because they're cowards and don't want to take responsibility for their actions.