Would this Change your Position on Abortion?

[fantome profane]

Think of it like this. What if a man somehow stole a woman's eggs and fertilized them with his semen. He then puts the fetus in a piece of machinery that allow it to develop into a fully grown baby. Would you agree that the mother of the baby is still fully responsible for the baby after it's born - that she should be forced to help pay for the costs of raising it?

What you are describing here is something akin to rape. (not exactly rape, but similar). So, no the woman would not be responsible for the cost of raising the child.

If you want to describe a scenario where a woman raped a man (yes it is possible) and became pregnant then under those circumstances I would agree that the father does not have responsibility to the child.

Even in my first response to this thread I said there should be an exception in the case of rape. This applies here as well

This raises an interesting question. If there is an incubator somewhere that has the stolen fertilized egg of a woman then I think that woman has the right to "abort" that fetus before it comes to term. Same would apply to an egg fertilized with stolen sperm. We can't steal dna from people and create babies. What a horror scenario that would be. This is one of the reason I initially included 100% safe and effective birth control as one of the conditions. If someone becomes a parent through their own actions then they have some responsibility, if there dna is stolen against their will they don't.

 

[Thana]

The woman wouldn't be having a child either since the child would develop in a nifty piece of machinery. So the question still stands.

She'd still have to have a procedure to take the child out of her, and then, whether she likes it or not apparently, she'd have a child like a man would have a child. How is that a win for anyone, including the child, who no one wants?

It's selfish. On your part, it's selfish for your ideals to supercede the wishes of everyone involved. Unless you're willing to adopt every unwanted baby and support and provide for them for the rest of your life? Yeah, if you got your way those babies would live. But you don't care what kind of life they'll have after you force it on them. Nor do you care about the psychological effects it'd have on the women. All you care about is your ideology winning.

No thanks.

 

[Mister Emu]

Generally the question is at what point during the pregnancy can the foetus be said to be 'human'

Excuse me for quibbling while you defend my statement. That is another issue I have with the language surrounding the debate about abortion. It is human all the way through its development, it surely isn't anything else.

But my point is precisely that it is not alive if it can't be viable outside the womb. Before that point it is just a group of cells. I don't see how that's not science.

Then your point is in the face of biology. It isn't science in the same way that a distinction between macro and micro evolution is not science.

 

[Thanda]

I don't know if many people will be moved by this argument since most women probably are motivated to get abortions for different reasons.

That was precisely the point of this thread. The abortion argument is often framed as a question of a woman's body and all the trials and troubles she goes through during pregnancy. But as you can see from the comments in this threads (as well as objective evidence about the reasons why women have abortions) abortions are really about women running away from the responsibility and inconvenience of raising a child (rather than having a child). But this same concern women have is also had by men and yet it is not addressed in any way.

 

[Madhuri]

Excuse me for quibbling while you defend my statement. That is another issue I have with the language surrounding the debate about abortion. It is human all the way through its development, it surely isn't anything else.

I do agree with you in this and it could even be that the 'proper' term is 'person'. I personally tend to think of the fetus as an under-developed human but still human.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Then your point is in the face of biology. It isn't science in the same way that a distinction between macro and micro evolution is not science.

If your point is that the fetus is alive throughout all points of its development, then it follows that a zygote is "alive" as well. Do you think this statement contradicts your position or not?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I do agree with you in this and it could even be that the 'proper' term is 'person'. I personally tend to think of the fetus as an under-developed human but still human.

What's your position on the legality or lack thereof of abortion?

 

[Thanda]

She'd still have to have a procedure to take the child out of her, and then, whether she likes it or not apparently, she'd have a child like a man would have a child. How is that a win for anyone, including the child, who no one wants?

It's selfish. On your part, it's selfish for your ideals to supercede the wishes of everyone involved. Unless you're willing to adopt every unwanted baby and support and provide for them for the rest of your life? Yeah, if you got your way those babies would live. But you don't care what kind of life they'll have after you force it on them. Nor do you care about the psychological effects it'd have on the women. All you care about is your ideology winning.

No thanks.

All the arguments you are putting forth apply equally to men. Men also don't like having babies forced on them (some women lie about their use of contraceptives). Some men are also psychologically and emotionally affected by the news that an unwanted child is on the way. But you appear not to care to much about that. It appears that it's only women's feelings and comfort that you care about at the moment.

Where is your fairness and consistency?

 

[fantome profane]

All the arguments you are putting forth apply equally to men. Men also don't like having babies forced on them (some women lie about their use of contraceptives). Some men are also psychologically and emotionally affected by the news that an unwanted child is on the way. But you appear not to care to much about that. It appears that it's only women's feelings and comfort that you care about at the moment.

Where is your fairness and consistency?

Who ever said life was fair?

 

[Madhuri]

That was precisely the point of this thread. The abortion argument is often framed as a question of a woman's body and all the trials and troubles she goes through during pregnancy. But as you can see from the comments in this threads (as well as objective evidence about the reasons why women have abortions) abortions are really about women running away from the responsibility and inconvenience of raising a child (rather than having a child). But this same concern women have is also had by men and yet it is not addressed in any way.

To me the question is whether it really matters to 'run away from the responsibility'. If, for the purpose of argument, it isn't morally wrong to abort the fetus, then I don't see the problem in 'running away'.
I'm a little uncertain about the argument of the man's responsibility. On the one hand I believe the man is morally responsible to support the child but as a woman who believes in choice, I wouldn't want to force a man to take care of my child if he didn't want it to exist.

 

[Thanda]

What you are describing here is something akin to rape. (not exactly rape, but similar). So, no the woman would not be responsible for the cost of raising the child.

If you want to describe a scenario where a woman raped a man (yes it is possible) and became pregnant then under those circumstances I would agree that the father does not have responsibility to the child.

Even in my first response to this thread I said there should be an exception in the case of rape. This applies here as well

This raises an interesting question. If there is an incubator somewhere that has the stolen fertilized egg of a woman then I think that woman has the right to "abort" that fetus before it comes to term. Same would apply to an egg fertilized with stolen sperm. We can't steal dna from people and create babies. What a horror scenario that would be. This is one of the reason I initially included 100% safe and effective birth control as one of the conditions. If someone becomes a parent through their own actions then they have some responsibility, if there dna is stolen against their will they don't.

Okay, so if a woman lies about her use of contraceptives in order to fall pregnant, would you count that as being close enough to rape to absolve the father of responsibility? Or if she pokes holes in the condom?

 

[Thana]

All the arguments you are putting forth apply equally to men. Men also don't like having babies forced on them (some women lie about their use of contraceptives). Some men are also psychologically and emotionally affected by the news that an unwanted child is on the way. But you appear not to care to much about that. It appears that it's only women's feelings and comfort that you care about at the moment.

Where is your fairness and consistency?

Men don't get a choice once they decide to have unprotected sex (And even if the woman lied about contraceptives, He's still choosing to have unprotected sex). After that, biologically, it's all on the woman.
So it's not fair, but that's just the way it is. Suck it up, and let women have the right to do what they want with their bodies and the little parasites growing inside them.

 

[Thanda]

Who ever said life was fair?

No one. It isn't and that is why we humans have to work so hard to make sure it is? Or do you not try to make life fair?

 

[Thanda]

To me the question is whether it really matters to 'run away from the responsibility'. If, for the purpose of argument, it isn't morally wrong to abort the fetus, then I don't see the problem in 'running away'.
I'm a little uncertain about the argument of the man's responsibility. On the one hand I believe the man is morally responsible to support the child but as a woman who believes in choice, I wouldn't want to force a man to take care of my child if he didn't want it to exist.

I appreciate your moral consistency.

 

[Thanda]

Men don't get a choice once they decide to have unprotected sex (And even if the woman lied about contraceptives, He's still choosing to have unprotected sex). After that, biologically, it's all on the woman.
So it's not fair, but that's just the way it is. Suck it up, and let women have the right to do what they want with their bodies and the little parasites growing inside them.

Thank you for showing how unreasonable your position is.

 

[Madhuri]

What's your position on the legality or lack thereof of abortion?

I'm pro-choice but I also feel that there should be a strict time limit on when an abortion can take place.

 

[fantome profane]

Okay, so if a woman lies about her use of contraceptives in order to fall pregnant, would you count that as being close enough to rape to absolve the father of responsibility? Or if she pokes holes in the condom?

No, because the man still has the choice to avoid sex, or get a vasectomy. Everyone should know that no form of contraceptive is 100% effective, that is the risk we take for getting it on.

Remember this is the right of the child you are trying to waive. The child didn't poke a hole in the condom, the child didn't lie about contraceptive. The child didn't do anything wrong. You can't just waive the child's right so easily.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm pro-choice but I also feel that there should be a strict time limit on when an abortion can take place.

I see. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Mister Emu]

If your point is that the fetus is alive throughout all points of its development, then it follows that a zygote is "alive" as well. Do you think this statement contradicts your position or not?

Yes, a zygote is assuredly (assuming of course that it isn't dead) alive.

 

[Madhuri]

Men don't get a choice once they decide to have unprotected sex (And even if the woman lied about contraceptives, He's still choosing to have unprotected sex). After that, biologically, it's all on the woman.
So it's not fair, but that's just the way it is. Suck it up, and let women have the right to do what they want with their bodies and the little parasites growing inside them.

I disagree with you about circumstances that involve the woman lying. I don't think it's right to force a man into a life that you've tricked him into. In this case I think the woman needs to take responsibility for her actions and either abort the fetus or know that she might have to take care of the baby herself.