Would you be religious without a reward on offer?

[Ozzie]

Do you think you would follow your religion if there was no reward in it for you, whatever that may be in your faith - no answered prayers and no afterlife?

Would you still be Christian if Jesus had not offered eternal life?

Would you be Muslim if there were no heaven to look forward too?

Would you be Hindu if moksha and reunion with God was not a possibility?

Would you be Wiccan or pagan if your prayers were not answered and your magick had no effect?

And for Buddhists, would you follow the dharma if the Buddha had not taught about a permanent Nirvana?

Any religion not mentioned above please also post, perhaps with an explanation if you feel one would help with understanding.

As a Buddhist definitely it is worth being at least interested in the effects of religion that are immediately tangible. I mean these are as much of a reward in pursuing a path as any ultimate reward. No I don't think religion is anything but purposive.

 

[roli]

Do you think you would follow your religion if there was no reward in it for you, whatever that may be in your faith - no answered prayers and no afterlife?

Would you still be Christian if Jesus had not offered eternal life?

Would you be Muslim if there were no heaven to look forward too?

Would you be Hindu if moksha and reunion with God was not a possibility?

Would you be Wiccan or pagan if your prayers were not answered and your magick had no effect?

And for Buddhists, would you follow the dharma if the Buddha had not taught about a permanent Nirvana?

Any religion not mentioned above please also post, perhaps with an explanation if you feel one would help with understanding.

Paul speaking in 1 Cor 15 , regarding the resurrection and he concludes with this verse
"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable".
Another word for miserable is " pitied" by mankind, that is if there is no eternal life

What is he saying ,if it's just for this life we have hope in Jesus and there is no resurrection of the dead ,meaning we will not gain eternal life then he is saying "our faith is in vain ,our preaching is in vain and even trusting Jesus is vanity ,if it were not for the fact that Jesus did rise from the grave and we all shall, as born again , spirit filled believers, be raised to also to newness of life and live eternally with God the father and God the Son.

A philospher or atheist in this age can indeed speak out against and refute the existence of God and the whole life,death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but they can not take away from what actually took place.They may steer men away from Jesus and I would not want to be in their shoes on the day they face God ,but they can't take from 1) history 2) an expereince of the power of the Holy Ghost indwelling a believer at conversion.

It is upon this conversion we gain eternal life and what a sense of security in this world shaken by such ,biblically prophetic occurences that have taken place and that are taking place now ,this is the time and this is the place ,we are in the last days.

He defeated death and abolished it ,bringing life and immoratality to light through the gospel message

But men will say ,as they have always said 2Pe 3:4 — And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

Mat 24:38 — For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Luk 17:26And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Luk 12:19And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry.But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

1Th 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[joeboonda]

Salvation is not a reward, it is a completely undeserved, unmerited, totally free gift.

 

[Halcyon]

Salvation is not a reward, it is a completely undeserved, unmerited, totally free gift.

But you have to believe in Jesus to get it.

So, since there is a requirement to be fulfilled and only those who fulfill the requirement get the prize, that makes it a reward - a reward for believing.

 

[Smoke]

I think every religion must deliver some kind of actual reward (apart from pie-in-the-sky promises about the afterlife), or people wouldn't keep at it. I mean, even self-righteousness is a reward of sorts, or the certain feeling that one is going to be with Jesus (whether one is actually going to be with Jesus or not).

Christmas Humphries said, [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]"It is the criterion of all Buddhist teaching that it conduces or does not conduce to the achievement of enlightenment," and I think enlightenment is a much more worthwhile reward than promises about the hereafter. However, since enlightenment is hard to define, I'd prefer to say that a religion is worthwhile to the extent (and only to the extent) that it conduces to compassion, reason, and mindfulness. Those are some pretty good rewards.
[/FONT]

 

[Smoke]

But you have to believe in Jesus to get it.

I spotted a church sign Tuesday that said:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO
MAKE A DECISION
TO GO TO HELL

It's very interesting to me that people will actually advertise that their god's default position on humanity is eternal damnation.
​

 

[lunamoth]

I spotted a church sign Tuesday that said:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO
MAKE A DECISION
TO GO TO HELL​

It's very interesting to me that people will actually advertise that their god's default position on humanity is eternal damnation.​

 

[lunamoth]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] I'd prefer to say that a religion is worthwhile to the extent (and only to the extent) that it conduces to compassion, reason, and mindfulness. Those are some pretty good rewards.
[/FONT]

Good post. The System *curse you System!* will not let me frubal you again.

 

[BruceDLimber]

>Would you be religious without a reward on offer?

I should certainly hope so!

The more so given that the Baha'i scriptures explicitly condemn anyone acting as he or she does due to either hope of Heaven or fear of hell!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[lunamoth]

>Would you be religious without a reward on offer?

I should certainly hope so!

The more so given that the Baha'i scriptures explicitly condemn anyone acting as he or she does due to either hope of Heaven or fear of hell!

Peace,

Bruce

So, when the scriptures condemn a person...what exactly is the result of that?

 

[Popeyesays]

I think Bruce is refering to this in particular:

"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

aND THERE'S THIS AS WELL:

"O My Brother! Until thou enter the Egypt of love, thou shalt never come to the Joseph of the Beauty of the Friend; and until, like Jacob, thou forsake thine outward eyes, thou shalt never open the eye of thine inward being; and until thou burn with the fire of love, thou shalt never commune with the Lover of Longing.
A lover feareth nothing and no harm can come nigh him: Thou seest him chill in the fire and dry in the sea.
A lover is he who is chill in hell fire;
A knower is he who is dry in the sea. [1]
[1 Persian mystic poem.]
Love accepteth no existence and wisheth no life: He seeth life in death, and in shame seeketh glory. To merit the madness of love, man must abound in sanity; to merit the bonds of the Friend, he must be full of spirit. Blessed the neck that is caught in His noose, happy the head that falleth on the dust in the pathway of His love. Wherefore, O friend, give up thy self that thou mayest find the Peerless One, pass by this mortal earth that thou mayest seek 10 a home in the nest of heaven. Be as naught, if thou wouldst kindle the fire of being and be fit for the pathway of love.
Love seizeth not upon a living soul,
The falcon preyeth not on a dead mouse. [1]
[1 Persian mystic poem. Cf. The Hidden Words, No. 7, Arabic.]
(Baha'u'llah, The Seven Valleys, p. 9)


rEGARDS,
sCOTT

 

[lunamoth]

I think Bruce is refering to this in particular:

"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

Thank you for the quote Scott, but Bruce said that scripture condemns anyone who does not take or is unable to take this advice. That is what I was asking about.

 

[Popeyesays]

It seems to me that one has to define what condemnation is and is not first. I have no idea how to define it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[lunamoth]

It seems to me that one has to define what condemnation is and is not first. I have no idea how to define it.

Regards,
Scott

Well, that's what I was asking Bruce. It seems ironic to use a fear of condemnation to prohibit worship in fear...

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

What if you weren't "rewarded" for eating food? What if tomorrow, no matter how much we ate, we would still starve? It wouldn't taste good, no nutritional value, not even satisfaction of curiosity on 'what eating is like'...would you still eat food?

This is exactly how I feel. I feel that the iman itself is what I cannot live without. If I must live without iman, then I choose not to exist. However I think the point of the OP question was that if religion gave nothing, absolutely nothing would we still do it. I say no. Allah created Islam so to have twofold benefit, one in this life and one in the next. Without the spiritual benefit I receive daily from completing the task of worship as I was created for it, I see no point. We don't do anything that does not have at least a superficial benefit for us, and religion is no different.

 

[Popeyesays]

The word "condemnation" occurs very rarely in the writings of the Bab, Baha`u'llah, Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

It's a total of 51 times. More than half of these are references to the word by Shoghi Effendi specifically applied to condemnation of the Baha`i Faith by outsiders.

God does not "condemn" much of anything in that word.

Maybe we're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I know molehills are pretty insignificant compared to mountains. I had a fair collection of molehills in my yard til the cats learned how to hunt moles.

Regards,

Scott

 

[lunamoth]

The word "condemnation" occurs very rarely in the writings of the Bab, Baha`u'llah, Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

It's a total of 51 times. More than half of these are references to the word by Shoghi Effendi specifically applied to condemnation of the Baha`i Faith by outsiders.

God does not "condemn" much of anything in that word.

Maybe we're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I know molehills are pretty insignificant compared to mountains. I had a fair collection of molehills in my yard til the cats learned how to hunt moles.

Regards,

Scott

Then perhaps Bruce should choose a different word...I was not asking you to begin with Scott. It was your choice to jump in here. All I was looking for was an explanation from Bruce. I found his choice of words unusual based upon what I know of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[shadow_fire]

I believe in Satanism which is a non-theistic religion that promises nothing. Its about growth, intelligence, passion, indulgence, enjoyment.

 

[Buttercup]

I honestly couldn't imagine practicing anything without some form of reward.