Would you change if...?

[Storm]

Why do people post in thought-experiment threads if they don't want to play?

 

[smokydot]

I agree that religion tells a lot about the people that hold a given religious belief. Understanding someone's religion is a shortcut into understanding their deepest desires, fears, and morality.
That's why even as someone who isn't religious, religion fascinates me.

That's understandable.

But your assumption of why religious belief is held does not allow for the possibility of it being true, and you have no proof that it is not.

 

[Riverwolf]

His question is quite valid.

And so is my claim to information he doesn't have, based on a premise he does not acknowledge, which shows the "irrefutable proof" to be deception.

That information that you claim to have would be nullified if his hypothetical conditions are met.

 

[Penumbra]

His question is quite valid.

And so is my claim to information he doesn't have, based on a premise he does not acknowledge, which shows the "irrefutable proof" to be deception.

That's how hypothetical scenarios work.

Someone presents a set of statements, and then asks the people involved in the discussion to answer one or more questions based on acceptance of those statements.

It's not a case of presenting the statements themselves as fact. It's a case of asking what people would do assuming they accepted those statements.

 

[Storm]

That's understandable.

But your assumption of why religious beliefs are held does not allow for the possibility of their being true, and you have no proof that it is not.

Howso?

 

[Penumbra]

A hypothetical to Theists -

If you received irrefutable proof that ,

There is no God
Natue exists on its own
No reason behind children born with defective hearts
No reason why one person sails through a life of prosperity while another is laden with numerous problems
No after-life
No future lives
No heaven and
No hell.

If you received this information today, would you make any changes to your lifestyle?

Well, I already accept all of those statements, but since I used to be a theist, I can share that transitioning from accepting (some of) those statements to letting all of them go, my lifestyle did not change much, if at all.

Of course, I aged during the process, so I became more conscious of myself, but I wouldn't assume that this improvement was a direct result of letting those beliefs go.

 

[smokydot]

I probably wouldn't change much if anything in my day to day life since my practices aren't contingent on a deity literally existing
I think the OP was implying that yes. Remember this is a hypothetical argument that involves you knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that god is not real etc.

That would be tantamount to me knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that earth doesn't exist, or that I don't exist.

That would be insanity. . .which is most definitely deception.

 

[Penumbra]

That's understandable.

But your assumption of why religious beliefs are held does not allow for the possibility of their being true, and you have no proof that it is not.

Actually, I think religious beliefs tell a lot about the desires, fears, and morality of a person regardless of whether their beliefs end up being accurate or not.

The fact that I find them inaccurate is a separate issue.

 

[smokydot]

Yes. No possibility of deception whatsoever.

Well, as I just said in post #27, that would be tantamount to me knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that earth does not exist, or that I do not exist.

That is insanity. . .which is most definitely deception.

 

[Erebus]

That would be tantamount to me knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that earth doesn't exist, or that I don't exist.

That would be insanity. . .which is most definitely deception.

So what would you do if the Earth did not exist or you did not exist? Perhaps you are just a computer program in a giant video game? Perhaps all that exists is your mind and everything else is illusion?

It's fairly obvious that god is a major part in your life, but this is only a thought experiment. What would you do if that part of your life was proven beyond any doubt (including yours) that it did not exist?

 

[smokydot]

Why do people post in thought-experiment threads if they don't want to play?

Lack of imagination. . .playing games about God is not play to them. . .given to a factual mind. . .practical. . .not given to nonsense. . .

Duly noted.

 

[smokydot]

Actually, I think religious beliefs tell a lot about the desires, fears, and morality of a person regardless of whether their beliefs end up being accurate or not.

Don't you think that is a little smug?

If what they believe is true, it tells a lot only about a desire for truth.
It's foolish to say that refusing to walk off the edge of a cliff tells "a lot about" one's fears,
or that refusal to run down the little old lady crossing the street tells "a lot about" one's morality.

The fact that I find them inaccurate is a separate issue.

 

[Father Heathen]

According to the Scriptures which I believe, any such "irrefutable proof" is a deception and a lie, which I am to have nothing to do with.

And that's what I would do in the face of such "irrefutable proof."

Don't spam the thread with a worthless response if you can't bring yourself to answer the question honestly.

 

[Penumbra]

Don't you think that is a little smug?

Not really. People can take any views I have and try to put the puzzle together for me as well.

I'm fair game.

If what they believe is true, it tells a lot only about a desire for truth.
It's foolish to say that refusing to walk off the edge of a cliff tells "a lot about" one's fears,
or that refusal to run down the little old lady crossing the street tells "a lot about" one's morality.

It tells a lot more than that. For instance, if someone loves a god that condones genocide, it tells a lot about their values regardless of whether this god actually exists or not.

As a lighter example, if a person has a very loving, compassionate, and inclusive metaphysical worldview, it tells a lot about the way they think even if the universe doesn't operate as they suppose that it does.

 

[Father Heathen]

I've also had atheists admit that there is not a single situation that would make them believe in God. No matter how 'irrefutable'.

And those people would be intellectually dishonest. But I have my doubts that you've actually heard something like that.

 

[Madhuri]

And those people would be intellectually dishonest. But I have my doubts that you've actually heard something like that.

Unfortunately I have, on debate forums. And yes, I agree that they were intellectually dishonest (and very extreme in their approaches).

 

[Penumbra]

And those people would be intellectually dishonest. But I have my doubts that you've actually heard something like that.

I could see some atheists asserting that, depending on how it's understood.

For instance, if an atheist receives a strikingly genuine experience from a given deity, she might conclude that she is simply delusional rather than that she received communication from a magical being.

It depends on how ridiculously far one takes "irrefutable" to mean.

 

[Father Heathen]

You are assuming, and this is all it is--an assumption, that your view is true and mine is not. Since it is only an assumption, that allows for my assumption possibly to be true.

And if it is, my assumption that the Scriptures are the Word of (the one and only) God, written, then any "irrefutable proof" really is a deception and a lie.
It's not like that hasn't happened before.

So the scriptures are true because the scriptures say they're true? Circular logic as a defense mechanism is so adorable. Makes me want to pinch the little automatons right on their cheeks.

 

[Riverwolf]

That would be tantamount to me knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that earth doesn't exist, or that I don't exist.

That would be insanity. . .which is most definitely deception.

Speaking as a theist, I don't think I'd compare the existence of God with the existence of the earth.

I fully admit that there is no evidence for the existence of God.

 

[Storm]

And those people would be intellectually dishonest. But I have my doubts that you've actually heard something like that.

Unfortunately I have, on debate forums. And yes, I agree that they were intellectually dishonest (and very extreme in their approaches).

As have I. I just chalk it up to anonymity bringing out the jerks and fools.