Road Less Traveled
Active Member
That is strange, because Road Less Traveled never said that. .
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Would you force someone to do something to save someone else?
- Thread starter charlie sc
- Start date
That is strange, because Road Less Traveled never said that. .
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, taking a life is a more fitting way to describe abortion.
It isn't murder because it is legal, but it is still taking a life..
Making abortion legal just shows how low a society can sink.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, that got posted to the wrong person.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll fix it now.
Homicide is a better word. It's more precisely nuanced.
My own mother would have died before I was born if surgical abortion hadn't been an option.
Tom
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I'm glad that isn't happen for both your sakes.
I often wish I had not been born, but there are other days that are better.
The beginning of my coming out as a gay guy, in southern Indiana with a conservative Catholic family, was pulling into the parking lot of a gun store. I sat there in my car for hours, trying to work up the nerve to go in and ask a question about guns.
This was decades ago, the laws about buying guns were comparatively lax. I knew that if I went in there for one minute, I wouldn't even have to leave the parking lot.
Not, personally.
Tom
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You mean you think that the store owners would have known you were gay?
I grew up in Indiana, but my parents had dropped out of the Church before any of their three children were born.
I was raised with morals, but not religious or believing in God.
My father taught at the Purdue University and some of his best friends were gay, back in the 1950s when that was not acceptable. I guess that is why I never thought of being gay was any big deal, or that gay people are any different from straight people. It is just a sexual preference, it has nothing to do with character.
Kilk1
Member
For a religion that at first sounded foreign to me, I'm surprised how much my views have in common with it! We shouldn't add or subtract from what Moses said, but Moses told us to look for a future prophet, Jesus Christ. And when Christ came, He told His apostles (John 16:12-13) that the Spirit of truth would guide them into all truth.
When did the Spirit of truth come? Is it the event recorded in Acts 2?
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
lol I have no contention that life beings at fertilisation. Though, that's not what I was contending.
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
No, because of a couple of reasons. First, fetuses have no chance to survive outside the womb under 22 weeks pregnancy. Fetal viability - Wikipedia So, it really makes no difference how you remove it. Second, it's incredibly difficult to remove it in the first place, so it requires resources and may even be potentially harmful for the mother(this should be considered on some level). However, if a fetus has a good chance to survive outside the womb, it's not too invasive for the female, and one chooses to remove it by damaging the fetus then we can consider it as an act of killing it or murder. At 25+ weeks, the fetus has a 50% chance to survive outside the womb. See, bellow this number, logically, it has very little ethical merit to stand on, especially 0%.
Last edited:
charlie sc
Well-Known Member
Always enjoy our discussions.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha’is believe that the Spirit of truth was the return of Christ, the Comforter Jesus promised to send. His name was Baha’u’llah and He came in the 19th century.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,I will send him unto you.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,I will send him unto you.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings.
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
The full passage referring to Jesus as the Son of Man is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
What I have learned from Christians is that they believe the Spirit of truth came on the day of Pentecost. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it (John 16:12), but the Truth was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation. Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Jesus is that His teaching was absolute and final.
Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have these verses:
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Baha’is believe we are now living in the last days, and we have been since 1844, when the Bab (the forerunner to Baha’u’llah) came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah.(Bab means gate in Persian.) However, last days does not mean the end of the world, but rather at the beginning of a new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment.
The following is just the tip of the iceberg as far as prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah, but since they are referenced in Acts 2:17-21, I thought I would mention them.
All of this happened before Baha’u’llah came:
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
These are excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
The details about these prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in the book.
All the prophecies for the return of Christ and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are delineated in detail in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears. There are other books Baha’is have written on the subject of prophecies, but this book is online to read.
I don’t remember if I told you, but I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. I became a Baha’i at age 17, but after that I had many personal problems, so I put religion and God on the back burner for decades, while I did much inner healing work and attended over 15 years of college. So, to make a long story short, I was not interested in religion during those years, although I never once lost my faith in Baha’u’llah. However, I had no reason to read the Bible, soI never read any verses in the Bible until 2013, when I first came to forums and started posting to Christians.
Because I was never a Christian I did not know what to make of the Bible, and because I tend towards skepticism,I never had much faith in the accuracy of the Bible;but after reading all the prophecies and how they were fulfilled, I have changed my mind. Moreover, I have no idea how these prophecies could be that accurate unless the Bible was actually inspired by the Holy Spirit. Of course that is a Baha’i belief. Baha’u’llah wrote of God that the Bible is:
“His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures.” (The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89)
If you want to continue this discussion, I should probably start a new thread, because I have taken this thread way off topic.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What were you contending then?
Kilk1
Member
Thanks! I'm going to be gone a few days for a wedding. After that, I'll resume the discussion. Until then, my friend.
Kilk1
Member
Baha’is believe that the Spirit of truth was the return of Christ, the Comforter Jesus promised to send. His name was Baha’u’llah and He came in the 19th century.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,I will send him unto you.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings.
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
The full passage referring to Jesus as the Son of Man is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
What I have learned from Christians is that they believe the Spirit of truth came on the day of Pentecost. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it (John 16:12), but the Truth was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation. Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Jesus is that His teaching was absolute and final.
Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have these verses:
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Baha’is believe we are now living in the last days, and we have been since 1844, when the Bab (the forerunner to Baha’u’llah) came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah.(Bab means gate in Persian.) However, last days does not mean the end of the world, but rather at the beginning of a new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment.
The following is just the tip of the iceberg as far as prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah, but since they are referenced in Acts 2:17-21, I thought I would mention them.
All of this happened before Baha’u’llah came:
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
These are excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
The details about these prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in the book.
All the prophecies for the return of Christ and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are delineated in detail in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears. There are other books Baha’is have written on the subject of prophecies, but this book is online to read.
I don’t remember if I told you, but I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. I became a Baha’i at age 17, but after that I had many personal problems, so I put religion and God on the back burner for decades, while I did much inner healing work and attended over 15 years of college. So, to make a long story short, I was not interested in religion during those years, although I never once lost my faith in Baha’u’llah. However, I had no reason to read the Bible, soI never read any verses in the Bible until 2013, when I first came to forums and started posting to Christians.
Because I was never a Christian I did not know what to make of the Bible, and because I tend towards skepticism,I never had much faith in the accuracy of the Bible;but after reading all the prophecies and how they were fulfilled, I have changed my mind. Moreover, I have no idea how these prophecies could be that accurate unless the Bible was actually inspired by the Holy Spirit. Of course that is a Baha’i belief. Baha’u’llah wrote of God that the Bible is:
“His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures.” (The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89)
If you want to continue this discussion, I should probably start a new thread, because I have taken this thread way off topic.
Yeah, maybe we should start this discussion in a new thread. However, I'm going to a wedding and will be gone for a few days. Maybe we can continue the discussion then.
PS: I think it's interesting that November 12 is the Bahá’u’lláh's birthday, because I also was born on November 12.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Good, I am going to be off work till next Tuesday so I should have some time, but I have to catch up on some posts I fell behind on, so this is good timing.
Have fun at the wedding.
Hmmmm....That could have some significance.PS: I think it's interesting that November 12 is the Bahá’u’lláh's birthday, because I also was born on November 12.
Kilk1
Member
I'm back! Your response to this post of mine can be on a new thread, like you mentioned, if you want.Baha’is believe that the Spirit of truth was the return of Christ, the Comforter Jesus promised to send. His name was Baha’u’llah and He came in the 19th century.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father,he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart,I will send him unto you.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings.
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
The full passage referring to Jesus as the Son of Man is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
What I have learned from Christians is that they believe the Spirit of truth came on the day of Pentecost. They believe that if the Truth were partly withheld from them for a time because they could not bear it (John 16:12), but the Truth was divulged at Pentecost in its fullness and now nothing remains to be revealed. But there is nothing in the account of Pentecost to suggest such an interpretation. Another opinion which Christians universally hold about Jesus is that His teaching was absolute and final.
Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have these verses:
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Baha’is believe we are now living in the last days, and we have been since 1844, when the Bab (the forerunner to Baha’u’llah) came to announce the coming of Baha’u’llah.(Bab means gate in Persian.) However, last days does not mean the end of the world, but rather at the beginning of a new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment.
The following is just the tip of the iceberg as far as prophecies that were fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah, but since they are referenced in Acts 2:17-21, I thought I would mention them.
All of this happened before Baha’u’llah came:
“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:
1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars
It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.
These are excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
The details about these prophecies and how they were fulfilled are in the book.
All the prophecies for the return of Christ and how they were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah are delineated in detail in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears. There are other books Baha’is have written on the subject of prophecies, but this book is online to read.
I don’t remember if I told you, but I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. I became a Baha’i at age 17, but after that I had many personal problems, so I put religion and God on the back burner for decades, while I did much inner healing work and attended over 15 years of college. So, to make a long story short, I was not interested in religion during those years, although I never once lost my faith in Baha’u’llah. However, I had no reason to read the Bible, soI never read any verses in the Bible until 2013, when I first came to forums and started posting to Christians.
Because I was never a Christian I did not know what to make of the Bible, and because I tend towards skepticism,I never had much faith in the accuracy of the Bible;but after reading all the prophecies and how they were fulfilled, I have changed my mind. Moreover, I have no idea how these prophecies could be that accurate unless the Bible was actually inspired by the Holy Spirit. Of course that is a Baha’i belief. Baha’u’llah wrote of God that the Bible is:
“His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures.” (The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89)
If you want to continue this discussion, I should probably start a new thread, because I have taken this thread way off topic.
In Acts 2:17-21, don't the apostles seem to be saying that they were in the last days? Backing up to verses 13-16 gives us the context. Peter is responding to mockers who said, "These men are full of new wine." He replies that "these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day." If drunkenness isn't the correct interpretation, what is? He quotes Joel's mention of the "last days," when God would pour out His Spirit--which just happened then, at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)--showing that last-days prophecy was being fulfilled before their very eyes!
You said that Jesus was referring to the Baha’u’llah when speaking of the Comforter. However, in John 14:26, which you referenced, doesn't Jesus explicitly say that the Comforter "is the Holy Ghost"? Also, in Acts 1:8, Jesus told his apostles, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (emphasis mine). Notice it starts in Jerusalem. As Jesus said in Luke 24:49, "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."
Wasn't all this fulfilled in Acts 2, when "they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (v. 4)? And doesn't Jude say that the faith they followed "was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3, NKJV, emphasis mine)? Thanks.
Kilk1
Member
You're answering "No" to my question on if most of the abortion procedures in the video count as direct killing. Your first reason is that since "fetuses have no chance to survive outside the womb under 22 weeks pregnancy," the method of killing doesn't count. So basically, it's the ability to survive outside the womb that determines if it's direct killing? How does this work for the leech example? If a leech is attached to me and I chop it to pieces, is this direct killing? If so, would chopping a fetus to pieces who can't live on its own qualify as direct killing?
Your other reason is confusing to me. Are you saying that potential risk to the mother makes the act not qualify as killing? In other words, if the mother is not at risk, the abortion procedure is killing; if the mother is at risk, it isn't? Thanks.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I'll get back to you, probably tomorrow, because this is going to take a while to answer...I'm back! Your response to this post of mine can be on a new thread, like you mentioned, if you want.
In Acts 2:17-21, don't the apostles seem to be saying that they were in the last days? Backing up to verses 13-16 gives us the context. Peter is responding to mockers who said, "These men are full of new wine." He replies that "these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day." If drunkenness isn't the correct interpretation, what is? He quotes Joel's mention of the "last days," when God would pour out His Spirit--which just happened then, at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4)--showing that last-days prophecy was being fulfilled before their very eyes!
You said that Jesus was referring to the Baha’u’llah when speaking of the Comforter. However, in John 14:26, which you referenced, doesn't Jesus explicitly say that the Comforter "is the Holy Ghost"? Also, in Acts 1:8, Jesus told his apostles, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (emphasis mine). Notice it starts in Jerusalem. As Jesus said in Luke 24:49, "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."
Wasn't all this fulfilled in Acts 2, when "they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (v. 4)? And doesn't Jude say that the faith they followed "was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3, NKJV, emphasis mine)? Thanks.
I am at the end of my long weekend, back to work tomorrow.
I don't see it your way, thank goodness.