Would You Like Fries With That?

[Buttercup]

The biggest hypocrite Christians in the world, who show up Sunday mornings hung over from the night before, who break all sorts of comandments, but pay lip service to being a Christian is held in much higher regard than is myself, a person who as become an AA in spite of 1/3 of his life spent in an effort to find any evidence of a God worth following, and who is, above all, honest and forthright.

I would not hold that person in higher regard than you MSWG (please forgive the abbreviation!). I think a person like that needs a kick in the butt for bringing down the name of the Lord if you ask me. I don't hold a higher regard for someone because of religious affiliation . Really I don't. And the reason I don't is because belief in God is a choice. How can I denigrate you for your choice? At least that's how I see it. It wouldn't be fair.

My life would be better if I was a believer. But I am not.

Do you really mean easier? Because your relatives are believers? They should be kind to you and treat you no differently regardless of your belief.

When I got the most recent edition of Time magazine, and the cover indicated that the U.S. is falling farther and farther behind the rest of the world in Science, then I am reminded why we need AA's around. With Rick Perry and George Bush wanting no stem cell research and to teach ID in the classrooms, where can our youngsters, who might have the ability to become scientists, going to learn?

I agree with you here. One of my top 7 deadly gripes in that thread was not enough money for schools. I think the sciences need to be promoted without regard for religious beliefs. Well, within reason. And by the way, I am against ID being taught in school.

man, as a species doesn't appear to be equipped to be peaceful and happy, at least not for any extended period of time.

Indeed.

 

[linwood]

From a PERSONAL perspective, I would like to hear the No God people tell the God Believers how our lives would be BETTER without God in it.


I would like to know how a life lived believing there is No God would be a better life than a life lived believing In God.

You`re missing the point.

I can`t tell you whats better for you.
I can only be amazed that you can`t see it for yourself.

 

[Buttercup]

You`re missing the point.

I can`t tell you whats better for you.
I can only be amazed that you can`t see it for yourself.

I've already made my choice.

How can I be missing the point of my own question? I just want thoughts as to how my life could be better if I didn't believe in God. I'm open minded. Atheists are always trying to tell us God believers how dumb we are or irrational to be God believers....my question is:

Ok, then, why would it be better to not believe? How would my life improve?

 

[retrorich]

Seems to me that the People-Who-Do-Not-Believe-In-God are always trying to get the People-Who-Do-Believe-In-God to prove God exists.

I believe it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God. It's a matter of faith or lack of faith.

I would like to hear the No God people tell the God Believers how our lives would be BETTER without God in it.

I wouldn't say that your life would be better without God, or that my life is better without God. I simply am incapable of believing in Him. It's not a voluntary thing.

Try to “convert” us to Atheism.

I have absolutely zero interest in converting anyone to atheism. Go with whatever works for you.

PEACE

 

[YmirGF]

Hmm. Interesting question Buttercup. Please forgive my lengthy, meandering thoughts.

<rant>

First, I think you are making an error in thinking your life would become better by eliminating your belief in the various god concepts. I am not altogether sure it would make a big difference. I certainly would not pretend to promise you the proverbial rose garden. That is assuming a lot, as that implies that your current view is having some kind of negative effect on your life experience. Who am I to say? Only you can say for sure. Even then, how would anyone know in advance?

Belief in these god concepts answers a very fundamental need within the psyche of the believer. Non-believers fullfil this same fundamental need with non-religious replacements (ie. Science or simply "nature"). Imho, this need is one of the most basic aspects of our identity. Who am I? Why am I here? What is the freaking point of living? Am I a buttercup dreaming of itself as a man, or a man who is dreaming of himself as a buttercup? We all have different ways of understanding our personal reality. It doesn't make a hill of beans of difference what you settle on, AS LONG AS it all makes sense to you. Your viewpoint does not have to make sense to me, as long as it has meaning for you. (We cannot be expected to understand everything now, can we?)

I think where people go wrong is in thinking that their view is better than that of someone else. I'll be dead honest with you. I think my way of perceiving reality is better than anything else I have been presented with. I really do. The thing that keeps reality in focus, is that I do not assume that I cannot be wrong. This allows me the ability to continually expand my horizons, as I am, and always will be, refining my definition of what reality is. Imho, the problem is not a case of god being wrong or an illusion, but rather, it is more a case of the intractable postions that people take, based on subjective feelings, regarding subjects that have no ultimate proof. It is all a matter of perception, and perception is determined by what one believes. Then again, I could be wrong.

</rant>

:val:

 

[Ryan2065]

You would not be "better off" converting to another religion... You would be the same as you were before...

As long as you follow what you believe to be true, you will be happy.

 

[d.]

How can I be missing the point of my own question? I just want thoughts as to how my life could be better if I didn't believe in God.

you are not missing the point of your own question, you're missing the point of atheism/agnosticism. people generally hold these beliefs because it's what they believe, not because they somehow benefit from them. being an AA is different for different people, for some people it's thoroughly pleasant, others long for the feeling that life has a grand purpose or something like that.

i'm sure you yourself didn't choose your belief system because it would be the most pleasant way through life.

Atheists are always trying to tell us God believers how dumb we are or irrational to be God believers....

isn't this the core of this argument?

 

[retrorich]

people generally hold these beliefs because it's what they believe, not because they somehow benefit from them. being an AA is different for different people, for some people it's thoroughly pleasant, others long for the feeling that life has a grand purpose or something like that.

I did not choose to become an atheist. I became an atheist because my mind could not accept a belief in God, gods or goddesses. I do not consider people who believe in God to be stupid; their minds simply work differently than mine. I have been an atheist for over 40 years, and am 100% at peace with it. I do not "long for the feeling that life has a grand purpose," and I do not seek to convert anyone to atheism.

 

[Buttercup]

We left for the weekend on Friday and when I came home my computer did a nose dive...Must be punishing us for neglect while we were out!

I have limited access right now but will be back to this thread to comment further as soon as I can stay online long enough to complete a decent post...

:banghead3 :computer:


Edit: 8:15pm Got the computer working again but goofed off in the General Discussion thread tonight...will be back tomorrow.

 

[Super Universe]

Everything I've read here comes down to a personal frustration with the way things are. How come God didn't make it better for me? Certainly if there really was a God He would at least be involved with us?

The universe is large and complex, so much that it is beyond imagination. Simply, God created it so we could exist and, more importantly, create things ourselves. Do we not create our own lives? Do we not choose what to wear? How to decorate our homes? What to eat?

Surely none of us has everything that a person could want but that should not be the goal. Material things break, burn, fade, and tear, but a human who can see beyond the material universe into the realm of faith has finally matured into a sentient being. One who chooses morality over profit.

Would God choose God if He was born a human and like us had no memory of His prior self? We are supposed to grow. We were designed to have extreme free will and a very distant awareness of our conscious attachment to God. It is understandable that so many blame God for our imperfect religion, government, and life in general but each and every imperfection can be attributed to humans.

Some question "Why doesn't God fix things?"

Did you follow everything your parents told you when you were young? Likely you had to learn many things on your own and those lessons make you the person you are today.

You have the power. You have the free will. This is your planet, your country, your home. Why don't you fix things?

 

[Super Universe]

Well, first off, you don't have to live in fear of the wrath of an angry god who will punish you if you break any of his little rules. You don't have to sit around in church listening to boring sermons and giving donations to appease said angry god. You don't have to live your life as a robot controlled by god. You get to make your own actions - they aren't predetermined by god. Plus, every decision you make, you don't have to fear if god approves. If you think it's good or bad, that's all that matters. You don't have to worry that god will disagree and punish you.

God does not punish us. How could He? He created all of this for us. God has endless forgiveness for us. Biblical writers misconstrued the real intentions, either purposefully or accidentally. Why would God send us His own Son to teach us forgiveness then punish us for our faults? It makes no sense.

God nor angels fell Soddom and Gomorrah, a meteor did that. And God did not send a flood upon the earth but angels did what they could to save life from the coming deep waters.

God does not need us to go to a church and listen to and pay a man to teach us about right and wrong, jealousy, pride, hate, envy... Aren't we familiar enough with our own minds to know when we aren't doing the right thing?

 

[d.]

It makes no sense.

exactly.

 

[Buttercup]

Getting back to the first points I was trying to make and questions I wanted to ask, I will add some more detail to the original post..

I have been a Christian for quite some time but came from a family of non believers. Not a genuine Atheist family, more Agnostic I would guess. My family has never thought much about God or pursued any religious practice nor did we talk about God hardly ever. I think many families fall into this category. Not a direct disbelief in God....more an apathetic interest in God. The subject simply doesn't come up often, if ever.

When I was nine years old I distincly remember asking my mother who God was and what he was all about and if he wanted anything from us. She told me I could find out all those answers at church but she didn't want to go with me as she was not interested in organized religion at all. I couldn't let the subject go however and kept hounding her for answers to my questions. Finally she said, "Look, there's a Catholic church on the corner, why don't you go there to find some answers." I still can't believe I did this, but for one month of Sundays I walked my little 9 year old self down to services dressed up in my finest clothes. Latin was still spoken at mass at this church so I sat by myself waiting to hear who God was but of course not understanding a single word spoken. People kneeled, people prayed and people went forward for communion while I sat and watched the whole process from curious but confused eyes. After a month of no one speaking to me and not learning a single thing about God, I quit going.

Fast forwarding to my teenage years still found me searching for answers to my questions about God. A kind young man named Chuck used to stroll the neighborhood I lived in looking for anyone to stop and listen to his stories of Jesus. At first, I stopped and listened out of respect and lack of confidence in saying "No, thanks". After a month or so of politely hearing the words he proclaimed, I accepted Christ into my life because I fell in love with the hope and love this God he talked about offered. It was more than I could hope for in my quest for God. I didn't expect to find a God so loving or kind or one who offered peace for my inner soul. I can remember feeling very euphoric for days on end and I didn't know why. Chuck didn't explain any of this to me prior to that day. I just know I felt peace and a sense of well being.

I wish I could say that I have never had a doubt in God from that day forward. But I can't say that. I have to be honest and say that I understand where Atheists and Agnostics are coming from in their disbelief. So I am not missing the point at all as some of you implied. Many times in my life I have said to myself "Yeah, but how do I know for sure God exists?" "I have this belief but how can I be sure?" "I can't prove God exists so am I a fool for believing?" "What about all the evolutionary evidence about the beginnings of man, don't those contradict the bible and God?" "How do I know God wasn't just a made up story from ages ago to make man feel better about this life or the life hereafter?". I have asked myself those questions and probably hundreds more in my lifetime.

But I always come back to this: We can't prove the existence of God but neither can we disprove it. And yes evolution brings about questions concerning God but we don't have all the answers or links regarding evolution either. The Big Bang makes sense and is seen as the most plausible answer for the very beginning of time. But what about before the Big Bang? Did the universe just blast into being from nothing? On and on the comparisons go in my head. One side for God, one side against God. I am always throwing about the double possibilites. But to me....there is always the thought that....GOD COULD EXIST!

Perhaps some would accuse me of hedging my bets by continuing a belief in God. I think many Christians at some point say...."Well, if I believe in God at least I'm covered and I've got nothing to lose." "That way I'm taken care of after I die." But for me it's so much more. I enjoy my belief in God. I find hope in my belief in God. My life is better because of my belief in God. My belief in God is one of the reasons I am a happy person. To those of you who mention that my life would not be any different if I did not believe in God I would have to politely disagree. Perhaps if you've never held a belief in God I can picture having those thoughts. But once you genuinely believe in God....for most of us, we can't imagine a life being better without him in it. Sure some change their minds. Some people held a belief in a supreme being at one point and then change their minds later. I don't think that will be me. Because from many aspects, I cannot imagine my life being better without God.

I am however, still interested in the other side.

 

[jstinson]

There is an emptyness that non-christians feel, and most don't even know it exsists, and do not care. Notice that I said non-christians. There are believers that are not christians whose lives are no better or worse. If you choose to ignore that there is a God and his one son Jesus the Christ died for our sins, you may live your life however you choose. It is a much easier way to live. However, when non-christians greive, they greive without hope, and I can't imagine how difficult that is. God and Jesus pulled me out of depression, and I am experiencing the joy of being God's servant and trying to live ritchously. IT is not guilt that drives me to not sin, it is a longing to not dissapoint my ABBA Father. IT is not guilt that makes me feel bad when I do sin. It is the knowlege that My Heavenly Father is dissapointed. He let his Son, Jesus, die for me. Jesus took the sin of the world with him to the cross, and God could not look at him. My open rebellion of that sacrifice hurts God and makes my heart ache for resolution.

I have not choosen the glamorus, carefree, no consequense life. I have choosen the joyous life that only other Christians know, and I look forward to standing ion front of God one day and hearing the words, "well done my son."

 

[d.]

There is an emptyness that non-christians feel,

not necessarily, no.

If you choose to ignore that there is a God and his one son Jesus the Christ died for our sins,

this is why debate between religious stances and non-religious ones so often end up in a lot of time wasted.

ignore? "if you choose to ignore the fact that there is no god..." you can imagine how far this debate would go if i or anyone else took that stance.

you may live your life however you choose. It is a much easier way to live.

arguable.

However, when non-christians greive, they greive without hope, and I can't imagine how difficult that is.

i can't believe how god seems to be a carrot for some people. 'if you choose to accept jesus christ you won't feel all empty inside no more.' many people have a problem with that idea - and have problems believing in jesus or mohammad or whoever. this argument seems based on fear of death, and i'm not going to believe something based on a fear of what will happen to me when i die.

I have not choosen the glamorus, carefree, no consequense life.

neither have i.

 

[d.]

I have to be honest and say that I understand where Atheists and Agnostics are coming from in their disbelief. So I am not missing the point at all as some of you implied.

the point missed was more about you asking what one would have to GAIN from being an A/A. the question is irrelevant.

it's like asking what one would have to gain from believing that my grandfather isn't dead. of course it would feel better if i genuinely thought he was alive somewhere - but i was at his funeral last week, and i'm unfortunately pretty sure he's not.

 

[linwood]

There is an emptyness that non-christians feel, and most don't even know it exsists, and do not care.

This is simply a lie.
How would you know this even if it weren`t?

However, when non-christians greive, they greive without hope, and I can't imagine how difficult that is.

Correction, when atheists grieve, they grieve without false hope.
Hope we all have.

God and Jesus pulled me out of depression, and I am experiencing the joy of being God's servant and trying to live ritchously.

Thats great for you but many of us need no theistic crutch to overcome lifes difficulties and live "righteously".

I have not choosen the glamorus, carefree, no consequense life.

Please tell me who does live a glamorous, carefree life of no consequence?

 

[d.]

Please tell me who does live a glamorous, carefree life of no consequence?

paris hilton?

 

[jstinson]

My point was simply that until you take the huge leap of faith and accept the free gift of salvation, you can't possibly understand the joy that God can bring to your life. You can argue all day long that there is not an emptiness, but until it is filled, there is only ignorance of it.

Analogy.

Someone tells you that there is something burried in your back yard. You can either choose to believe that or you can choose not to believe that. You can rationalize it by saying, "my ancestors found this land and none oof them burried anything." You can say, "I have all the things that I need without digging whatever it is up." OR you can get a shovel and dig. You start digging and you see something. You dig that something up and it is a letter. It says, "To the barrer of this certificate comes a debt free life. Cost: Nothing - paid in full by your Heavenly Father."

Until you dug you were completely ingnorant the joy that could be. Now that you have it, you never want to go back to the way your life was before.

 

[Popeyesays]

paris hilton?

Nah! She has all those worries about ex-husbands and private video tapes. . . .