Would you please help me: an experiment for theists and atheists alike

[Chevalier Violet]

I have tried praying in the past and nothing has ever happened! Then again maybe I am praying wrong (I am not really sure how to) - but the way I say is if God is all powerful, it shouldnt matter how you pray, he will still hear you!

This exercise isn't about God hearing you. It's about you experiencing God, and then coming back and telling me about it

Well, I'm not. Deism is much closer to theism than my beliefs are. It's a radically different concept of God.

I think of theist as an overall category for a person who believes in God. This is my language in my head, so I'm going to keep it As for conventional English, ok you're a pantheist that's cool. Do you have exchanges with this God? Exchange thoughts, words, feelings, images, sounds?

Mon erreur, « la petite fille qui appartient à Dieu » may be more appropriate, the genders possessives tend to weird out on translation engines when God is in the mix... suffice it to say I am his little girl, not his granddaughter:angel2:

Have you read C.S. Lewis' science fiction trilogy by any chance? (There is something in it relevant to this thread, but I'd rather not go into it if you haven't.)

lol, c'est pas grave. La petite fille qui appartient à dieu? LOL, ok, I don't think I've ever said this before, but that would actually sound better in English: God's little girl.


Never read the trilogy, sorry. Should I?

CV

 

[white_wizard2012]

I believe we are all God!:yes: thats when we express our love for other beings, being kind & polite, friendly, openminded, all the positive things are godly dont you agree we are divine because we create reality but we have forgotten our power in fact we are afraid of how powerfull we are or might be?:rainbow1:

You see we all create our own reality simply put by choosing what to think about & how to feel you see Spirit communicates with us through emotion & feeling when you feel good spirit is telling you yes this is right when you feel bad then you are disconnected I dont know who your conected with then maybe the so called badside the devil sum of you would call it.


wake up beloveds you are more than you think:bow:

you are Divine realize it, be free, be happy & joyfull its that simple & what you dont like dont focus onit & it shall die dont give power to Acne or feeling poor or bad health be aware of your negative thoughts you see how conditioned you are?

Love healing & blessings to the darkness, Evil, pain, Suffering, anger, war etc

white_magician2012:run:

 

[Storm]

I think of theist as an overall category for a person who believes in God. This is my language in my head, so I'm going to keep it As for conventional English, ok you're a pantheist that's cool. Do you have exchanges with this God? Exchange thoughts, words, feelings, images, sounds?

The problem is, I don't believe in a theistic God. I'm telling you I'm not a theist; the term does not properly apply to me. It may seem unimportant to you, but it's not - you cannot understand my beliefs if you can't even internalize the idea of God without deity.

Besides which, it's a little rude, don't you think, to respond to "No, I am not a theist" with "well, you are to me"? It's not your call. Bit of a warning flag.

 

[eudaimonia]

Interestingly, I cannot do this with the image I have of God. If I try to imagine God as a parrot, I just can't. I can imagine a parrot, I can see an image of God in my head (without saying God actually exists) but I cannot imagine God as a parrot. I can't imagine a godly parrot; I can imagine a parrot, but then it doesn't feel like God anymore.

I think the problem is with imagining God as something silly -- almost comical -- like a parrot.

Try a lion. It works with Aslan of Narnia. Yup, seems Godly.

For me, just as an example, I can't see God as a woman.

I can, if I am focusing on God's compassionate or wise side, rather than the vengeful side.


I will note also that if I try to imagine Gandalf or Sauron as a parrot, this doesn't work.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[!Fluffy!]

lol merci, je vous entends

Never read the trilogy, sorry. Should I?

Well, it takes a 'generous' reader, as it was written in the late 40s or early 50s? So if one can look beyond the obvious scientific blunders and technical problems (for example I pretend when Lewis sends the hero to 'Mars' he is going to a distant galaxy....) anyway the rewards will be great if you enjoy the likes of C.S. Lewis, George MacDonald, or Tolkien.

Anyway he thinks about things like the problems other 'higher' supernatural beings (like angels, not necessarily God Himself) might encounter when trying to physically appear to someone on another or 'lower' plane of existence. For example if that being is not subject to gravity, or at least to the SAME gravity and is instead speeding through space to keep up with the spinning planet you are on, in order to appear to YOU, they may appear to be tilted and flying while standing still.

At one point the protagonist ("Ransom" is his name) encounters a particularly powerful being, sort of an entire planet's guardian angel. Just being in its presence is physically unbearable and gives us a hint of why we might in our current state be incapable of perceiving, or bearing, even a somewhat accurate image of God himself.

I can't really do it justice, sorry but you might find it fun to read and the conversations about images and God's nature are somewhat relevant to what you have discovered.

 

[Comet]

Well, I'm not a theist nor an atheist. So, I'm not sure I can play..... but I will anyway!

To go off of what Feathers said on the first page:

I think that which is GOD or the Gods or God can speak to people in different ways. It may be a voice or a vision of a God/God, or it could be beyond words or seeing a "being". Sometimes you need not see God or have it speak to you in words.....

I think it can be more of a KNOWING or "seeing" or understanding or feeling. It has nothing to do with looking at it or hearing it speak. Just my 2 cents :run:

 

[!Fluffy!]

CV, here is a better review of the Space Trilogy:

When C.S. Lewis wrote fiction, he created a world and then asked, "How would God choose to be revealed in this world?" The way Lewis reveals God in these stories is amazing. The first book in the trilogy will probably have the most familiar feel to an avid science fiction reader. The second will probably be the most appealing to the fantasy lover and those who are reading these books because they loved the Chronicles of Narnia. The third will probably appeal most to those who like Lewis' non-fiction works and works such as "The Pilgrim's Regress." The trilogy as a whole offers something for everyone who is a fan of Lewis' works, or any lover of science fiction/fantasy that enjoys thinking about theology and ethics while reading fiction. I've read that when Lewis died he had been working on a fourth edition of the Space Trilogy, but the trilogy is certainly complete and a great experience as is.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Interestingly, I cannot do this with the image I have of God. If I try to imagine God as a parrot, I just can't. I can imagine a parrot, I can see an image of God in my head (without saying God actually exists) but I cannot imagine God as a parrot. I can't imagine a godly parrot; I can imagine a parrot, but then it doesn't feel like God anymore.

I can picture God as a parrot and it's hilarious. Not just any parrot, but a pirate's parrot with a big black hat and a patch over it's eye. It would explain why the Bible was written in King James english.

Quote: This experiment is for people who have never seen a vision of God before.

That would apply to me.

Whether or not God exists, almost everybody agrees that normal, sane, rational people have visions of God, and some of these people believe that what they "see" (or sometimes simply hear or sense) is truly a supernatural being.

Remove the normal, sane, and rational and I would agree with you.

Whatever your beliefs - whether or not you believe God is ultimately an illusion - the point of this exercise is to see if we can get you to see this vision. If you have more questions, please feel free.

There is one pre-condition to this experiment. This requisite pre-condition is very different from experiments in the material world: true desire.

Let's say you're baking a cake. In the material world, if I give you precise directions for how to bake a cake, it doesn't matter if you don't want a cake to come out of your oven. So long as you follow the directions scrupulously, it doesn't matter what you desire; even if you desire cookies, you will get a cake.

"Visions that people attribute to God" is not a material perception. It is a perception of a religious realm, or something completely imaginary. I could give you precise directions, and you could follow them exactly. But if you're bent on undermining what I say, you cannot possibly succeed. You must really seek this vision in order to have it. It will take your consent.

Now, if you fail to have a religious vision, you're afraid I'm going to say, "ah, your effort wasn't good enough. You didn't truly desire it, that's why you didn't have a religious vision." This prospect frightens you.

But that's not what I would say. I would simply ask three questions: 1.) would you please describe the frequency and duration of your attempts to see the "Vision attributed to God". 2.) How much did you desire to have a religious vision from 1-10 (10 being strong desire, 1 being no real desire.) 3.) I would ask how honestly did you answer these questions from 1-10 (1 being with complete dishonesty, 10 being with complete truth.)

That's it.

If you'd answer a bonus question, I'd really appreciate it. I'd ask "how uncomfortable, embarrassed, or foolish did you feel while praying?" 1-10

Then, whatever happens, I would thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Recommended method: just "pray" to "god" for 5 minutes a week every night for a week. Let's see what happens.

By prayer, I mean just ask God for what you want, talk about your feelings with God. If you feel comfortable doing the following, apologize for not being a better person in specific ways.

Even if you don't ultimately have a vision of God, this exercise will resemble meditation, and can't possibly do anything but make you a happier person. You really have nothing to lose but a few minutes of time and everything to gain.

I'm really excited to see what happens. I really appreciate the effort and telling me what you find out. I'm really looking forward to the results.

Thank you for your help. Good luck to you all in your search for truth,

What exactly do you hope to gain from this experiment? If we all come up with the same vision, perhaps it might lead us in a direction to believe that it might be real. But what if we all get different visions? What if the desire for a vision is making us imagine God rather than recieving a revalation? People can't even agree on what Jesus looks like. What if God doesn't look like anything? What if He's invisible? What if there are many Gods? Which God should we pray to? Should I ask God to appear to me or just expect it to happen? What if God doesn't want to appear to anyone? What if there is no God at all?

I was once a devoted believer myself. I've tried many times to get some sort of revalation or vision from God, anything to confirm my faith. Never happened. Members of the priesthood would give blessings to the sick and tell them all kinds of things as though God were speaking directly to them and when I would try it myself my mind was completely blank. I blamed myself thinking I just wasn't righteous enough or didn't have enough faith or that God was making a fool out of me to make me humble. Now I believe they were just making stuff up that they think God would want to say if He were actually speaking to them. After all, if it doesn't come true the person being blessed will feel the guilt and inadequacy of not having enough faith, and the one who gave the blessing can save face by standing their ground. This experiment is not going to prove anything.

 

[Storm]

I was once a devoted believer myself. I've tried many times to get some sort of revalation or vision from God, anything to confirm my faith. Never happened. Members of the priesthood would give blessings to the sick and tell them all kinds of things as though God were speaking directly to them and when I would try it myself my mind was completely blank. I blamed myself thinking I just wasn't righteous enough or didn't have enough faith or that God was making a fool out of me to make me humble. Now I believe they were just making stuff up that they think God would want to say if He were actually speaking to them. After all, if it doesn't come true the person being blessed will feel the guilt and inadequacy of not having enough faith, and the one who gave the blessing can save face by standing their ground. This experiment is not going to prove anything.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.

That said, I have to wonder: how exactly did you try to commune with God? Tell me if I'm crossing a line here, because I don't wish to offend, but I hear this sort of thing a lot from atheists. The thing is, as far as I can tell, what you and those like you were looking for was mystical experience. That's something you have to learn. Some people can do it instinctively, but the rest of us have to study, and practice, and often try various methods before we find one that really works for us.

Did you?

 

[Chevalier Violet]

The problem is, I don't believe in a theistic God. I'm telling you I'm not a theist; the term does not properly apply to me. It may seem unimportant to you, but it's not - you cannot understand my beliefs if you can't even internalize the idea of God without deity.

Besides which, it's a little rude, don't you think, to respond to "No, I am not a theist" with "well, you are to me"? It's not your call. Bit of a warning flag.

I hear you. It is very important to me what you actually are.

For my own purposes in my head, if I choose to label you a Euphastionalitic Gluggonite in my own thoughts, that is my call. I think I have the right to invent words or use words as I see fit in my own brain. That seems to me like my call. And that's exactly what I'm doing.

Like I said, in conventional English you are not a theist. And I would love to have some word for my own usage that means "a person who believes in a higher power." For shorthand, I just use the opposite of atheist, theist. Because I can't think of anything better.

That doesn't mean you believe in a deity. It means you're a pantheist.

I loved your reply below btw. The last board I was on was a pack of atheists. God I love having a bit of exterior brainpower so I don't have to do all the "theistic" (CV's brain use only) thinking and responding.

CV

 

[Chevalier Violet]

I believe we are all God! thats when we express our love for other beings, being kind & polite, friendly, openminded, all the positive things are godly dont you agree we are divine because we create reality but we have forgotten our power in fact we are afraid of how powerfull we are or might be?

You see we all create our own reality simply put by choosing what to think about & how to feel you see Spirit communicates with us through emotion & feeling when you feel good spirit is telling you yes this is right when you feel bad then you are disconnected I dont know who your conected with then maybe the so called badside the devil sum of you would call it.


wake up beloveds you are more than you think

you are Divine realize it, be free, be happy & joyfull its that simple & what you dont like dont focus onit & it shall die dont give power to Acne or feeling poor or bad health be aware of your negative thoughts you see how conditioned you are?

Love healing & blessings to the darkness, Evil, pain, Suffering, anger, war etc

white_magician2012

I agree with you that we lack power and LOL to "acne." Anyway, that being said, is this your way of saying you have never communicated with a deity or God?

I suppose this is a pantheistic point of view. Which is fine, it's just that this is an experiment and I want experiences, not abstractions. Thanks.

I think the problem is with imagining God as something silly -- almost comical -- like a parrot.

Try a lion. It works with Aslan of Narnia. Yup, seems Godly.

Wow! Yeah, that works way better. I'm not saying it works, but it's closer to working.

If this is indicative of anything, it would say that only images or metaphors with certain meaning or weight can "stand" for God. A parrot doesn't inspire fear, whereas a father, a lion does.

Very interesting.

I can, if I am focusing on God's compassionate or wise side, rather than the vengeful side.


I will note also that if I try to imagine Gandalf or Sauron as a parrot, this doesn't work.


eudaimonia,

Mark

lol

lol merci, je vous entends



Well, it takes a 'generous' reader, as it was written in the late 40s or early 50s? So if one can look beyond the obvious scientific blunders and technical problems (for example I pretend when Lewis sends the hero to 'Mars' he is going to a distant galaxy....) anyway the rewards will be great if you enjoy the likes of C.S. Lewis, George MacDonald, or Tolkien.

Anyway he thinks about things like the problems other 'higher' supernatural beings (like angels, not necessarily God Himself) might encounter when trying to physically appear to someone on another or 'lower' plane of existence. For example if that being is not subject to gravity, or at least to the SAME gravity and is instead speeding through space to keep up with the spinning planet you are on, in order to appear to YOU, they may appear to be tilted and flying while standing still.

At one point the protagonist ("Ransom" is his name) encounters a particularly powerful being, sort of an entire planet's guardian angel. Just being in its presence is physically unbearable and gives us a hint of why we might in our current state be incapable of perceiving, or bearing, even a somewhat accurate image of God himself.

I can't really do it justice, sorry but you might find it fun to read and the conversations about images and God's nature are somewhat relevant to what you have discovered.

Ah, c'est bien parce que je parlais Alors, est ce que tu parles français pour de bon?

Sounds like a sweet book. Dang, I've been meaning to read that guy.

Well, I'm not a theist nor an atheist. So, I'm not sure I can play..... but I will anyway!

To go off of what Feathers said on the first page:

I think that which is GOD or the Gods or God can speak to people in different ways. It may be a voice or a vision of a God/God, or it could be beyond words or seeing a "being". Sometimes you need not see God or have it speak to you in words.....

I think it can be more of a KNOWING or "seeing" or understanding or feeling. It has nothing to do with looking at it or hearing it speak. Just my 2 cents

Do you have any personal experience or are you speculating? I can't tell from your wording.

Speculating is ok, it's just that I'm really excited about hearing people's personal experience. If this is your experience, how would you describe an encounter with God for you?

CV, here is a better review of the Space Trilogy:

Now I gotta read it

 

[Storm]

I hear you. It is very important to me what you actually are.

For my own purposes in my head, if I choose to label you a Euphastionalitic Gluggonite in my own thoughts, that is my call. I think I have the right to invent words or use words as I see fit in my own brain. That seems to me like my call. And that's exactly what I'm doing.

Like I said, in conventional English you are not a theist. And I would love to have some word for my own usage that means "a person who believes in a higher power." For shorthand, I just use the opposite of atheist, theist. Because I can't think of anything better.

That doesn't mean you believe in a deity. It means you're a pantheist.

I loved your reply below btw. The last board I was on was a pack of atheists. God I love having a bit of exterior brainpower so I don't have to do all the "theistic" (CV's brain use only) thinking and responding.

CV

1) No, I'm not a pantheist, either. I'm a panentheist.

2) I don't believe in a "higher power," because "higher" requires separation, and "power" implies intervention, both of which are anathema to my beliefs. I believe in an organism of with planets for "cells." No miracles, no prayers, no intervention, no supernaturalism. This is why I object to being labelled theistic - I'm not, and it implies I believe things that I don't.

Sorry to harp, but I'm actually trying to get to the point where I can answer your question effectively, and the terminology is important. I am no more a theist than I am an atheist.

 

[Chevalier Violet]

I can picture God as a parrot and it's hilarious. Not just any parrot, but a pirate's parrot with a big black hat and a patch over it's eye. It would explain why the Bible was written in King James english.

I can imagine you as a parrot. This part of the experiment is only valid if you have actually had an encounter with God before. If not, it's just your imagination. Much like me imagining you as a parrot.

Remove the normal, sane, and rational and I would agree with you.

Ok. Maybe atheists are abnormal, insane, and irrational. Then again, I'm an agnostic, so I believe only people who are certain they are correct are insane.

What exactly do you hope to gain from this experiment? If we all come up with the same vision, perhaps it might lead us in a direction to believe that it might be real. But what if we all get different visions?

If we get different visions, it's evidence for atheism.

?!

Then again, having no visions means... nothing to me. To me, it's like someone who says Mount Kilimanjaro doesn't exist because they've never seen it.

This is the Christian, Jew, and Muslim's fault though. All these religious creeds speak as if God is just sitting around, bashing us over the head all the time, and talking to us. Which is why atheists say, "well, I've never seen this God. You must be crazy."

In truth, like Storm said in her post which harmonized perfectly with my experience, God doesn't readily appear to everyone.

By the way, does anybody know of any good exercises to get atheists to see God? Crap! They seem so scared and unwilling, I just can't think of any way to do this.

What if the desire for a vision is making us imagine God rather than recieving a revalation?

Good point. It's quite possible that you're right.

I have met God hundreds of times, and part of me is still convinced, and will always be convinced that it is just an illusion.

People can't even agree on what Jesus looks like. What if God doesn't look like anything? What if He's invisible? What if there are many Gods? Which God should we pray to?

I'm hoping this experiment will shed some light.

Should I ask God to appear to me or just expect it to happen? What if God doesn't want to appear to anyone? What if there is no God at all?

Just say how you feel and what you want out of life as if you were saying this to a Christian God. Worst case scenario, God doesn't exist and you'll be meditating.

Then again, even if there is no God, lots of normal, rational people see God. Of course there are abnormal, irrational people who see God too lol. I get the feeling you're afraid of turning into a religious nut if you see God. I have seen God many, many times, and I still don't completely believe He is real.

I was once a devoted believer myself. I've tried many times to get some sort of revalation or vision from God, anything to confirm my faith. Never happened. Members of the priesthood would give blessings to the sick and tell them all kinds of things as though God were speaking directly to them and when I would try it myself my mind was completely blank. I blamed myself thinking I just wasn't righteous enough or didn't have enough faith or that God was making a fool out of me to make me humble. Now I believe they were just making stuff up that they think God would want to say if He were actually speaking to them. After all, if it doesn't come true the person being blessed will feel the guilt and inadequacy of not having enough faith, and the one who gave the blessing can save face by standing their ground. This experiment is not going to prove anything.

Ahhh, now this part is interesting. This is my favorite part of your post: your personal experience. I hearing people's personal experience.

I don't understand why you were a devoted believer if you had never seen God. I was a devout atheist until I saw God. Then I was like, "oh." That's what everybody believes in. They're not crazy, even if I don't know if this is real.

But yeah, if you've never seen God, I really don't understand why you would be a "devout believer" and honestly, I find that revolting and scary. That is the worst of religion: when people believe things just because of their parents. I hate that. Then again, I was an atheist because my parents were.

As for proof, I see proof as impossible in the domain of religion. If you like that sort of thing, you may want to go somewhere else like math or logic. In religion, I only see personal experience and theory. Read philosophers of science, and they will tell you that "proof" doesn't even exist in mechanical physics; only in scientific rhetoric.

I don't even have anything I can demonstrate to you. The only proofs of a religion are found in your own heart. If you're not looking, you're always right.

The Purple Knight

 

[lilithu]

I can imagine you as a parrot. This part of the experiment is only valid if you have actually had an encounter with God before. If not, it's just your imagination.

And if so, it might still be your imagination.

If we get different visions, it's evidence for atheism.

How does that logically follow?

By the way, does anybody know of any good exercises to get atheists to see God? Crap! They seem so scared and unwilling, I just can't think of any way to do this.

Umm... maybe they just don't. I am not scared or unwilling to see the Tooth Fairy, and yet I don't.

Then again, even if there is no God, lots of normal, rational people see God. Of course there are abnormal, irrational people who see God too lol. I get the feeling you're afraid of turning into a religious nut if you see God. I have seen God many, many times, and I still don't completely believe He is real.

I see God everyday, and I don't necessarily see a "He."

 

[Kungfuzed]

Ok. Maybe atheists are abnormal, insane, and irrational. Then again, I'm an agnostic, so I believe only people who are certain they are correct are insane.

I think of God as the adult version of an imaginary friend. It seems harmless in most cases, as long as He's not telling you to do bad things.

By the way, does anybody know of any good exercises to get atheists to see God? Crap! They seem so scared and unwilling, I just can't think of any way to do this.

It could be that we're just tired of trying. I'm no more scared when I see Santa Clause.

I don't know any believers that have seen God either, except you.

I have met God hundreds of times, and part of me is still convinced, and will always be convinced that it is just an illusion.

I'm hoping this experiment will shed some light.

If I happen to see anything I'll let you know. Do you get to talk with Him at all or do you just see His image and that's it? We've got all kinds of questions for Him.

Just say how you feel and what you want out of life as if you were saying this to a Christian God. Worst case scenario, God doesn't exist and you'll be meditating.

Then again, even if there is no God, lots of normal, rational people see God. Of course there are abnormal, irrational people who see God too lol. I get the feeling you're afraid of turning into a religious nut if you see God. I have seen God many, many times, and I still don't completely believe He is real.

Has this vision given you any reason to believe it's real? Has it made any predictions or made anything happen in the physical world around you? Any miracles being done by this person you see?

Ahhh, now this part is interesting. This is my favorite part of your post: your personal experience. I hearing people's personal experience.

I don't understand why you were a devoted believer if you had never seen God. I was a devout atheist until I saw God. Then I was like, "oh." That's what everybody believes in. They're not crazy, even if I don't know if this is real.

But yeah, if you've never seen God, I really don't understand why you would be a "devout believer" and honestly, I find that revolting and scary. That is the worst of religion: when people believe things just because of their parents. I hate that. Then again, I was an atheist because my parents were.

As for proof, I see proof as impossible in the domain of religion. If you like that sort of thing, you may want to go somewhere else like math or logic. In religion, I only see personal experience and theory. Read philosophers of science, and they will tell you that "proof" doesn't even exist in mechanical physics; only in scientific rhetoric.

I don't even have anything I can demonstrate to you. The only proofs of a religion are found in your own heart. If you're not looking, you're always right.

The Purple Knight

I've never seen God but I did have an emotional bond back when I was a believer. I don't know anyone personally who has seen God or anyone who joined the church because God appeared to them. People are converted emotionally, not logically, and not because they have any empiracle evidence. The emotional bond is developed by hearing the stories of the gospel. You are told that God loves you and hear all kinds of stories of prophets and miracles and faith and love and sacrifice. Then you study and pray and next thing you know you have tears running down your cheeks. They tell you this feeling is the Holy Spirit and that God is testifying to you that it is true and you get all caught up in it and overwhelmed and next thing you know you're jumping into the baptismal font. At this point there still isn't a rational shred of evidence that any of it is true, it just feels true. You expect to get the evidence later as you apply your faith. Back then I was 14 years old. I'm 33 now and I'm a different person.

 

[Kungfuzed]

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.

That said, I have to wonder: how exactly did you try to commune with God? Tell me if I'm crossing a line here, because I don't wish to offend, but I hear this sort of thing a lot from atheists. The thing is, as far as I can tell, what you and those like you were looking for was mystical experience. That's something you have to learn. Some people can do it instinctively, but the rest of us have to study, and practice, and often try various methods before we find one that really works for us.

Did you?

I was taught to commune with God through prayer. Often it was done on my knees with head bowed and eyes closed and my hands together. During a blessing it was done standing up with my hands on the person's head. In either case I would address God as Heavenly Father, thank Him for a number of things, ask Him for whatever was needed at the time, and then close the prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. During a blessing, I expected God to tell me what the person needed, since I am no doctor or psyciatrist. There was one time someone wanted me to heal him. He had a deformity that made him walk funny, in fact he could barely walk at all. I had no idea if God wanted to heal this person or not and I really didn't understand what was medically wrong with him anyway, something to do with the joints in his hips probably. My mind was a blank. I laid my hands on his head, addressed Heavenly Father, made up some stuff about how God loves him, and closed in the name of Jesus Christ. Maybe I've just never been taught properly, but I've never seen God or healed anyone, or had any prayer of mine effect the physical world in any way. My faith was never justified beyond the origional emotional experience of conversion.

 

[Storm]

I was taught to commune with God through prayer. Often it was done on my knees with head bowed and eyes closed and my hands together. During a blessing it was done standing up with my hands on the person's head. In either case I would address God as Heavenly Father, thank Him for a number of things, ask Him for whatever was needed at the time, and then close the prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. During a blessing, I expected God to tell me what the person needed, since I am no doctor or psyciatrist. There was one time someone wanted me to heal him. He had a deformity that made him walk funny, in fact he could barely walk at all. I had no idea if God wanted to heal this person or not and I really didn't understand what was medically wrong with him anyway, something to do with the joints in his hips probably. My mind was a blank. I laid my hands on his head, addressed Heavenly Father, made up some stuff about how God loves him, and closed in the name of Jesus Christ. Maybe I've just never been taught properly, but I've never seen God or healed anyone, or had any prayer of mine effect the physical world in any way. My faith was never justified beyond the origional emotional experience of conversion.

Blessings? Were you clergy? And healings? Jeez... Can you give a little more info on what the religion/ denomination was? They were expecting you to heal with a laying on of hands? Gah. Once again, I'm terribly, terribly sorry.

Anyway, mystical states are an altered state of neurology. That's why it's so hard to learn. And to be honest, as far as I can tell, modern Christianity's not interested in teaching it. If you want a vision - more accurately, a trance state - plain ol' praying just isn't enough. You're just talking, as far as your brain is concerned. I understand that a lot of Christians get some kind of spiritual benefit out of it, but it obviously wasn't what you were looking for.

I suggest you read up on neurotheology. If nothing else it might set your mind at ease about the sanity of those who do commune with God. Or think we do. Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Beflief is an excellent starting point.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Blessings? Were you clergy? And healings? Jeez... Can you give a little more info on what the religion/ denomination was? They were expecting you to heal with a laying on of hands? Gah. Once again, I'm terribly, terribly sorry.

Anyway, mystical states are an altered state of neurology. That's why it's so hard to learn. And to be honest, as far as I can tell, modern Christianity's not interested in teaching it. If you want a vision - more accurately, a trance state - plain ol' praying just isn't enough. You're just talking, as far as your brain is concerned. I understand that a lot of Christians get some kind of spiritual benefit out of it, but it obviously wasn't what you were looking for.

I suggest you read up on neurotheology. If nothing else it might set your mind at ease about the sanity of those who do commune with God. Or think we do. Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Beflief is an excellent starting point.

I was a member of the LDS church, an Elder in the preisthood, and at the time I was giving that paticular blessing I was a missionary in Canada. I try not to mention the church in most of my posts because I don't want people to think I'm anti-mormon. I still love the church, I just don't believe in God anymore. That was just one example of many blessings I tried to give during my membership in the church. Anyway, you don't need to be sorry about it. I don't regret my experiences in the church. It was a valuable learning experience that has helped to make me what I am today. I think the only way I'll ever get a vision of God is to do like YmirGF and take some acid hits. If God is the one giving the vision than anyone should be able to recieve it regardless of their brain chemistry or how they are wired.

 

[MaddLlama]

Ok, I tried it.

Here is a pictorial example that is close to what I saw.

 

[Chevalier Violet]

And if so, it might still be your imagination.

Absolutely right.

How does that logically follow?

Note that I said evidence, far from proof (which barely exists in science, much less religious thought). But if everybody's impression of God is different, some could say that perhaps God is entirely imaginary. A chair looks like a chair to all of us. Our dreams are different.

On the other hand, those who believe in God could say that we all see different representations of God. This would be like everyone having different dreams to represent a feeling of sadness, or writing a different poem to describe joy. The feelings are real, the words and dreams would be representations of a real thing.

Umm... maybe they just don't. I am not scared or unwilling to see the Tooth Fairy, and yet I don't.

Well, most atheists definitely don't see God. Please see Storm's excellent posts on this above. The short version is that normal, sane, rational people see "visions of God." Note that I'm not claiming this God is real. But the question remains, why don't atheists see the same thing?

I don't know any normal, sane, rational people who see the Tooth Fairy.

I see God everyday, and I don't necessarily see a "He."

Excellent, I love to hear things like this. Would you please elaborate if possible?

CV

I think of God as the adult version of an imaginary friend. It seems harmless in most cases, as long as He's not telling you to do bad things.
It could be that we're just tired of trying. I'm no more scared when I see Santa Clause.

I know. But then again, it seems that you have never encountered this God personally... despite years of being Christian. Which, if you ask me, is pretty funny.

I would feel disgusted by Christianity if I'd never seen God. In fact I have and most of the time I still do. But I mean, it would be totally meaningless. Totally meaningless to me.

I don't know any believers that have seen God either, except you.

I'm not a Christian.

That's how my brother became a Christian. One day, he had an encounter with God and it totally changed his life. That's how most of my friends became Christian. For me too, it was not an "emotional" change, it was a change of evidence. The day before, I didn't see God. The day after I did.

If I happen to see anything I'll let you know. Do you get to talk with Him at all or do you just see His image and that's it? We've got all kinds of questions for Him.

Thanks I appreciate it.

I talk to Him. Maybe it's different for you.

Has this vision given you any reason to believe it's real? Has it made any predictions or made anything happen in the physical world around you? Any miracles being done by this person you see?

I actually haven't prayed in a while. My brother has some stories about this. I don't have time to share right now though. I will be focusing a lot more of my attention on the paranormal soon. In my life, I believe I've had paranormal abilities long before I met God, however. I don't feel that God is necessary to this sort of thing.

I've never seen God but I did have an emotional bond back when I was a believer. I don't know anyone personally who has seen God or anyone who joined the church because God appeared to them. People are converted emotionally, not logically, and not because they have any empiracle evidence. The emotional bond is developed by hearing the stories of the gospel. You are told that God loves you and hear all kinds of stories of prophets and miracles and faith and love and sacrifice. Then you study and pray and next thing you know you have tears running down your cheeks. They tell you this feeling is the Holy Spirit and that God is testifying to you that it is true and you get all caught up in it and overwhelmed and next thing you know you're jumping into the baptismal font. At this point there still isn't a rational shred of evidence that any of it is true, it just feels true. You expect to get the evidence later as you apply your faith. Back then I was 14 years old. I'm 33 now and I'm a different person.

Emotional bond... with what? You claim you never saw anything. With prayer?

I was taught to commune with God through prayer. Often it was done on my knees with head bowed and eyes closed and my hands together. During a blessing it was done standing up with my hands on the person's head. In either case I would address God as Heavenly Father, thank Him for a number of things, ask Him for whatever was needed at the time, and then close the prayer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. During a blessing, I expected God to tell me what the person needed, since I am no doctor or psyciatrist. There was one time someone wanted me to heal him. He had a deformity that made him walk funny, in fact he could barely walk at all. I had no idea if God wanted to heal this person or not and I really didn't understand what was medically wrong with him anyway, something to do with the joints in his hips probably. My mind was a blank. I laid my hands on his head, addressed Heavenly Father, made up some stuff about how God loves him, and closed in the name of Jesus Christ. Maybe I've just never been taught properly, but I've never seen God or healed anyone, or had any prayer of mine effect the physical world in any way. My faith was never justified beyond the origional emotional experience of conversion.

That makes sense to me.

Ok, I tried it.

Here is a pictorial example that is close to what I saw.

Sweeet! Thank you so much. I'm glad you saw a feminine God. That always makes my day.

Best wishes,

CV