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Would You Want to be in Heaven if People You Loved were in Hell?

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.​



The OP is optional because it doesn't really add anything to understanding the questions. Skip to the questions at the bottom if you don't want to read it.



"[Go to] Heaven for the climate, and Hell for [the] society." -- Mark Twain​


My mom was a Christian. She was also born in 1918, and she was decidedly 'Old School'. Old School as in she had her suspicions that even Paul was a bit too nouveau and upstart for her taste.

Somehow mom reconciled her instinct for things ancient with her membership in a relatively new church. God's Own Christian Church, the Presbyterian Congregation of America, Scotland, and Heaven. And she was particularly enamored of the comfortably old fashioned Presbyterian Doctrine that only adults -- and never children -- were intellectually and emotionally mature enough to make a personally valid and binding decision to become Christians.

Hence, she forbade me and my two brothers from arriving at any firm conclusions about whether God existed, whether Jesus was his son and humanity's savior, whether we wanted to become Christians, etc. -- she forbade us from making those decisions until we had -- to paraphrase her -- "arrived at a state of intellectual and emotional development when such decisions will no longer be meaningless."

In short, children were just too immature to make binding commitments. Period. Full Stop.

I was a rather dutiful lad in some ways, and I never, ever, even once challenged my mother's authority nor her rule against my arriving at any firm convictions and/or commitments. I always took care to think in purely provisional terms about religion through-out the whole of my childhood. Always. Except for that one time.

The time I became a Christian.

It happened in middle school. Two young, twenty-something missionaries from Tennessee arrived in our small Illinois town to save as many of us as possible. They decided to focus their efforts on saving the young people, and they rented a hall above a hardware store, decorated it, furbished it with tables and chairs, installed a concessions counter, and named the hall, "The Upper Room".

A kid magnet if there ever was one, since the town was too small for there to be many other places for middle school and high school kids to go in the evenings. The Upper Room was packed evening after evening from the week it opened onward.

One night, I got into a conversation with Lindsey. Lindsey was a year older than me, a pastor's son, and widely known to be a brilliant student who had never earned less than an A for any course he'd taken since first grade. He had studied C. S. Lewis and he knew well how to present the case for Christianity. It only took me three hours to forget all about mom and begin seriously entertaining the notion of converting.

I took his arguments home with me and thought about them for days. I even elaborated upon them to make them as tough as possible -- just to be sure they could stand up no matter how they were assailed. In the end, I decided Lindsey's conclusion that Christianity was the sole true religion simply could not be defeated.

Almost immediately after my conversion, I discovered that Judy -- the Judy -- was already a Christian! She was brainy, beautiful, and artistic. Three things I have always found irresistible in women. Three things almost ranking up there with a propensity to dance naked. I'd had a crush on Judy since third grade, and the moment I learned she was a fervent Christian, I set myself upon becoming just as fervent as she.

It all of it came tumbling down a month later. All of it. And in the course of a single night.

By then, my family knew of my conversion. None of them -- not even my mother -- tried to oppose me. I suppose she must have harbored secret reservations about my making such a youthful decision, but if she did, she kept them to herself.

Then one night, I decided I would proselytize my family at our dinner table. After all, I thought I knew what was best for them.

The episode came to an end when my younger brother posed the question, "What if you get to heaven only to discover the rest of us are in hell?"

That stopped me in my tracks. I had no answer for him. None. And I didn't get to sleep that night until just before dawn. Instead, I lay awake running his point through my head, trying to frame it in the toughest way possible, and slamming into one wall after the other. I could find no way around his thought that did not smack to me of BS, of kidding myself.

In the end, I felt forced to this conclusion: If it was true that my family would end up in hell and I in heaven, then I must refuse heaven in order to be with them in hell -- for I would be incapable of tolerating heaven if they were suffering in hell. To be sure, I still believed in Christianity. I wholly believed it was true. It was just that I wanted nothing to do with it, if having anything to do with it would lead to my family in hell and me in heaven.

Naturally, I prayed to God, sincerely thanked him for his grace and offer of salvation, told him of my thoughts on the matter, and wished him a fond adieu (if it was true my family might end up in hell with me in heaven). Or something very much along those lines. It's been ages since that night, and I have no doubt forgotten the details. The next day, I apologized to my mom and told her I would suspend judgment until I was properly mature enough to make a genuinely meaningful decision. She asked me what had changed my mind.

"Stuff", I said. "Nothing worth talking about." Terse. But what can you expect from a 13 year-old.


Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

Would you want to be in heaven if hell had all the dancing girls? That is, if anyone -- regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?





Yudhisthira, the son of Dharma (Justice) already answered this question in Mahabharata. He refused to go to heaven unless the faithful stray he adopted along the path was also allowed to enter. He also decided it was better to be in hell with his loved ones than be in heaven where they were absent. Of course both were tests created by the gods to see if he has perfectly understood Dharma so that he is truly fit to ascend heaven directly (without dying). His choices were the correct ones and he did ascend heaven with all his brothers and mother and wife.
The story also says that when Yudhisthira entered hell, all the region around him transformed into heaven. Where ever he was, heaven was. Thus, in Indian philosophy, heaven and hell are not external environments in which you live, but emanations from the powers (or imperfections) of your own soul. The flowers are not planted in an already fragrant meadow, the meadow is frahrant because the flowers are growing there.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I've said this a few times on here already. Heaven sounds awful.
I do not want to be in a place full of fawning god worshipers. I can't think of anything worse.
I want to be where Jim Hendrix, Ian Curtis, Einstein and the rest of the heathens are - they are far more interesting people.
 

Hellbound Serpiente

Active Member
This is rather personal topic for me, since I have already gone through such an ordeal. Regardless ...


Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?


This is a rather perplexing and terrifying scenario. On the one hand, yes, I'd want to be in heaven and on the other hand, no. Why would I want to be in heaven? Because you can't help the poor by becoming one of them. First, you have to take your own self out of the swamp to make helping others out possible. You can't do so if you yourself are drowning. You can think more clearly and act more rationally and efficiently when not under strain of inner and outer forces, which is why it's more sensible to be in heaven. Only when your well-being is secured can you help others.

On the other hand, why I don't want to be in heaven? Because my loved ones is nearer to me than my own self. Having them go through hell is equivalent to me going through something worse than hell itself. So no, even if I was in heaven while my loved ones were in hell, that heaven would be hell for me. I have already gone through such an ordeal and to this day, I wish all the pain and horrors my loved ones endured fell upon me instead of them. I die everyday a painful, humiliating death on the inside because of what happened there.

Would you want to be in heaven if all the dancing girls were in hell? That is to say, would you want to be in heaven if anyone -- anyone at all, regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?

It depends on who we are talking about. Some people have earned hell because of hell they made other people go through. If they are getting what they deserve, then I am unconcerned with it and would want to stay in heaven. If not, I'd still be want to be in heaven but God Willing, I'll do my best to take them out of hell.


 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Be careful not to debate in a discussion thread, @Deeje. It is fine to state your opinion. It is even fine to compare your opinion with someone else's opinion for the purposes of clarification. But it is not fine to state that the other person is wrong, for doing so crosses the line into debating.

OK, I need clarification on this....is stating what you believe and why you believe it, debating? I just thought I was sharing what I had learned about the subject through many years of Bible study....who did I state was wrong?
Help me out here.....
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This is a discussion thread, not a debate thread. State your views. Provide your reasons for them. Ask respectful questions of other posters. Discuss your views with them. Even compare and contrast your views with other positions purely for the sake of clarification. BUT DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHER POSITIONS FALSE OR WRONG! Moreover, please report to the Mods any posts that engage in debate, or attempt to.​



The OP is optional because it doesn't really add anything to understanding the questions. Skip to the questions at the bottom if you don't want to read it.



"[Go to] Heaven for the climate, and Hell for [the] society." -- Mark Twain​


My mom was a Christian. She was also born in 1918, and she was decidedly 'Old School'. Old School as in she had her suspicions that even Paul was a bit too nouveau and upstart for her taste.

Somehow mom reconciled her instinct for things ancient with her membership in a relatively new church. God's Own Christian Church, the Presbyterian Congregation of America, Scotland, and Heaven. And she was particularly enamored of the comfortably old fashioned Presbyterian Doctrine that only adults -- and never children -- were intellectually and emotionally mature enough to make a personally valid and binding decision to become Christians.

Hence, she forbade me and my two brothers from arriving at any firm conclusions about whether God existed, whether Jesus was his son and humanity's savior, whether we wanted to become Christians, etc. -- she forbade us from making those decisions until we had -- to paraphrase her -- "arrived at a state of intellectual and emotional development when such decisions will no longer be meaningless."

In short, children were just too immature to make binding commitments. Period. Full Stop.

I was a rather dutiful lad in some ways, and I never, ever, even once challenged my mother's authority nor her rule against my arriving at any firm convictions and/or commitments. I always took care to think in purely provisional terms about religion through-out the whole of my childhood. Always. Except for that one time.

The time I became a Christian.

It happened in middle school. Two young, twenty-something missionaries from Tennessee arrived in our small Illinois town to save as many of us as possible. They decided to focus their efforts on saving the young people, and they rented a hall above a hardware store, decorated it, furbished it with tables and chairs, installed a concessions counter, and named the hall, "The Upper Room".

A kid magnet if there ever was one, since the town was too small for there to be many other places for middle school and high school kids to go in the evenings. The Upper Room was packed evening after evening from the week it opened onward.

One night, I got into a conversation with Lindsey. Lindsey was a year older than me, a pastor's son, and widely known to be a brilliant student who had never earned less than an A for any course he'd taken since first grade. He had studied C. S. Lewis and he knew well how to present the case for Christianity. It only took me three hours to forget all about mom and begin seriously entertaining the notion of converting.

I took his arguments home with me and thought about them for days. I even elaborated upon them to make them as tough as possible -- just to be sure they could stand up no matter how they were assailed. In the end, I decided Lindsey's conclusion that Christianity was the sole true religion simply could not be defeated.

Almost immediately after my conversion, I discovered that Judy -- the Judy -- was already a Christian! She was brainy, beautiful, and artistic. Three things I have always found irresistible in women. Three things almost ranking up there with a propensity to dance naked. I'd had a crush on Judy since third grade, and the moment I learned she was a fervent Christian, I set myself upon becoming just as fervent as she.

It all of it came tumbling down a month later. All of it. And in the course of a single night.

By then, my family knew of my conversion. None of them -- not even my mother -- tried to oppose me. I suppose she must have harbored secret reservations about my making such a youthful decision, but if she did, she kept them to herself.

Then one night, I decided I would proselytize my family at our dinner table. After all, I thought I knew what was best for them.

The episode came to an end when my younger brother posed the question, "What if you get to heaven only to discover the rest of us are in hell?"

That stopped me in my tracks. I had no answer for him. None. And I didn't get to sleep that night until just before dawn. Instead, I lay awake running his point through my head, trying to frame it in the toughest way possible, and slamming into one wall after the other. I could find no way around his thought that did not smack to me of BS, of kidding myself.

In the end, I felt forced to this conclusion: If it was true that my family would end up in hell and I in heaven, then I must refuse heaven in order to be with them in hell -- for I would be incapable of tolerating heaven if they were suffering in hell. To be sure, I still believed in Christianity. I wholly believed it was true. It was just that I wanted nothing to do with it, if having anything to do with it would lead to my family in hell and me in heaven.

Naturally, I prayed to God, sincerely thanked him for his grace and offer of salvation, told him of my thoughts on the matter, and wished him a fond adieu (if it was true my family might end up in hell with me in heaven). Or something very much along those lines. It's been ages since that night, and I have no doubt forgotten the details. The next day, I apologized to my mom and told her I would suspend judgment until I was properly mature enough to make a genuinely meaningful decision. She asked me what had changed my mind.

"Stuff", I said. "Nothing worth talking about." Terse. But what can you expect from a 13 year-old.


Would you want to be in heaven if people you loved were in hell?

Would you want to be in heaven if all the dancing girls were in hell? That is to say, would you want to be in heaven if anyone -- anyone at all, regardless of your relationship to them -- were in hell?




Uncharacteristically, you did not define heaven and hell.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A long time ago, males, as a group of brothers, who all looked the same and thought the same decided to invent SCIENCE. As human males thinking.

What they researched was found in VISIONS...meaning it happened a long time before they even owned life....was about the mountain and UFO and Earth flooded conversion.

The reaction complete and finished....they studied it, gave it human inferred thinking details...yet their thoughts did not own the history nor the reaction.

They gave everything titles and descriptions and names as humans and termed it science, the ability to discuss other bodies present in themes. And they said God O was fusion, SION and fission was removal of a mountain peak....his pyramid. Yet he built machines in this pyramid, so obviously the intention machine was to remove self in that theme....to transport self by a time machine.

Yet going back in time originally was just thoughts and not actions. To go physically back in time by removing cold held radiation fusion....converted/sacrificed their original higher life God form. Just as they said. God O the stone, was inferred by their male self HE or him, male or man....and EL he said was the power he wanted released.

And God he said would change his form....and God surely did. That idea was first HEL...and HELIOS meant information of the Sun.

All life was still living and alive, just converted. Information looking back is imposed in storytelling, about God, wars and interactions of the past. So when males in a returned life looked back for science quotes....all life on Earth had been attacked and self combusted. And it was why giant creatures then roamed the Earth....when his God themes said the Nature Garden and male self were first he quotes.

Telling everyone that science sent life to self combustion HEL to HELL by the double condition, UFO Ark of the Sun x 2. Just as he told you.

You cannot send anyone to HELL and still be living to make quotes about it.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
OK, I need clarification on this....is stating what you believe and why you believe it, debating? I just thought I was sharing what I had learned about the subject through many years of Bible study....who did I state was wrong?
Help me out here.....

My apologies, @Deeje. I misjudged your post. Following your comments, I gave it a more careful rereading, and I now agree with you that it does not cross the line into debate. Again, sorry for the mistake.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I have already gone through such an ordeal and to this day, I wish all the pain and horrors my loved ones endured fell upon me instead of them. I die everyday a painful, humiliating death on the inside because of what happened there.

I'm very sorry to hear that.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
True. Would it have served a purpose in this context?

Yes. Let me explain. To me, hell is ignorance and ts painful consequences. And heaven is knowledge of the truth. With that perspective, IMO, the following Bible saying will apply: You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

In other words, it is always desirable that those mired in ignorance be helped out. But in order to do that you need to be in heaven. This is the ideal requirement.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
As a born-again Christian, I certainly have considered these questions. It usually is involved with the question of our memory. When I go to Heaven, how much will I remember of my experience here on earth? Or the people I knew and my affections for them? How about the evil I have done? Will I remember that?

I do believe we will remember. But not only has our outward conditions changed, but so have we been changed drastically. The thought at this time of a loved one of mine in Hell and me in Heaven, is painful. But in that day, when much becomes clearer, and the physical bonds are severed, even if a family member is in Hell, I think my relationship with God and Christ will so override the memory of the loved one, to the extent that sadness or pain will not be present.

So, yes, I want to be in Heaven with God and Christ, even though some family members may be in Hell.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Yes. Let me explain. To me, hell is ignorance and ts painful consequences. And heaven is knowledge of the truth. With that perspective, IMO, the following Bible saying will apply: You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

In other words, it is always desirable that those mired in ignorance be helped out. But in order to do that you need to be in heaven. This is the ideal requirement.

That's interesting to know, but I'm still uncertain how my defining the terms "Heaven" and "Hell" in the OP would be necessary or useful to you in stating your own views. Are you suggesting you do not feel comfortable stating them unless I define those terms? If so, why? I'm at a loss here.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Yudhisthira, the son of Dharma (Justice) already answered this question in Mahabharata. He refused to go to heaven unless the faithful stray he adopted along the path was also allowed to enter. He also decided it was better to be in hell with his loved ones than be in heaven where they were absent. Of course both were tests created by the gods to see if he has perfectly understood Dharma so that he is truly fit to ascend heaven directly (without dying). His choices were the correct ones and he did ascend heaven with all his brothers and mother and wife.

Wonderful story! Thanks for sharing that!

The story also says that when Yudhisthira entered hell, all the region around him transformed into heaven. Where ever he was, heaven was. Thus, in Indian philosophy, heaven and hell are not external environments in which you live, but emanations from the powers (or imperfections) of your own soul. The flowers are not planted in an already fragrant meadow, the meadow is frahrant because the flowers are growing there.

I have often heard it said that "heaven and hell are all in one's own mind". That seems significantly similar to the point you raise without actually being identical. Thanks again.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Anybody who's read my rants on this topic before* will know that I hold eternal Hell to be among the most dangerous beliefs a person can hold. When that belief is coupled with the idea of Heaven, you get some unsettling possibilities.

First off, of course I wouldn't want to be in Heaven while my loved ones suffer in Hell. I think other posters have already covered this better than I could. However, what if I don't get a choice in the matter? One line of thinking is that this would make Heaven into a sort of Hell itself as I would be aware that my family were suffering. There are some ways around that if God were inclined to take them though:

1. You may not have any memories of your family and no knowledge of Hell's existence. Being mind-wiped in Heaven would be one way to make its inhabitants capable of enjoying their eternities. Empathy for your family can't cause you suffering if you have no concept of ever having had a family.

2. You could be presented with simulacra of your family. Think of this as a sort of philosophical zombie in which non-sentient beings look and behave exactly as your family would. You would go through eternity with no idea that the things you're spending time with aren't actually your family.

3. You may simply be incapable of suffering. In this scenario even full awareness of what happened to your family wouldn't bother you in the slightest.


In my opinion, all these scenarios are quite horrific in an uncanny sort of way. Points 1 and 3 also raise some sticky questions about whether or not the being in Heaven is actually you. All of them achieve their goal of overcoming the possibility of Heaven's residents experiencing suffering on account of their family's damnation though. I'm sure there are other possibilities too but I can't think of one that doesn't have an element of The Twilight Zone to it.


*Or those unfortunate friends and family members who couldn't escape the room.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
That's interesting to know, but I'm still uncertain how my defining the terms "Heaven" and "Hell" in the OP would be necessary or useful to you in stating your own views. Are you suggesting you do not feel comfortable stating them unless I define those terms? If so, why? I'm at a loss here.

You are possibly correct that I could have stated my view before requesting for definitions. I just pointed that out because you usually are meticulous about stating the frame of discussion. But let me ask now if requesting for the definitions was wrong?:)
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You are possibly correct that I could have stated my view before requesting for definitions. I just pointed that out because you usually are meticulous about stating the frame of discussion. But let me ask now if requesting for the definitions was wrong?:)

The request wasn't wrong at all. I just thought that defining Heaven and Hell in this context would only serve to unnecessarily restrict the scope and range of the responses. I was checking to see if I had overlooked something.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
The request wasn't wrong at all. I just thought that defining Heaven and Hell in this context would only serve to unnecessarily restrict the scope and range of the responses. I was checking to see if I had overlooked something.

Okay. It is clear now. Thanks.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Anybody who's read my rants on this topic before* will know that I hold eternal Hell to be among the most dangerous beliefs a person can hold. When that belief is coupled with the idea of Heaven, you get some unsettling possibilities.

First off, of course I wouldn't want to be in Heaven while my loved ones suffer in Hell. I think other posters have already covered this better than I could. However, what if I don't get a choice in the matter? One line of thinking is that this would make Heaven into a sort of Hell itself as I would be aware that my family were suffering. There are some ways around that if God were inclined to take them though:

1. You may not have any memories of your family and no knowledge of Hell's existence. Being mind-wiped in Heaven would be one way to make its inhabitants capable of enjoying their eternities. Empathy for your family can't cause you suffering if you have no concept of ever having had a family.

2. You could be presented with simulacra of your family. Think of this as a sort of philosophical zombie in which non-sentient beings look and behave exactly as your family would. You would go through eternity with no idea that the things you're spending time with aren't actually your family.

3. You may simply be incapable of suffering. In this scenario even full awareness of what happened to your family wouldn't bother you in the slightest.


In my opinion, all these scenarios are quite horrific in an uncanny sort of way. Points 1 and 3 also raise some sticky questions about whether or not the being in Heaven is actually you. All of them achieve their goal of overcoming the possibility of Heaven's residents experiencing suffering on account of their family's damnation though. I'm sure there are other possibilities too but I can't think of one that doesn't have an element of The Twilight Zone to it.

Trenchant and well written both. You sure know how to take the cake.


*Or those unfortunate friends and family members who couldn't escape the room.

I, too, lock the doors before engaging my friends and family in lively conversations.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Yes. Let me explain. To me, hell is ignorance and ts painful consequences. And heaven is knowledge of the truth. With that perspective, IMO, the following Bible saying will apply: You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

In other words, it is always desirable that those mired in ignorance be helped out. But in order to do that you need to be in heaven. This is the ideal requirement.

Not to derail @Sunstone's characteristically brilliant thread (that OP was positively novelistic and a gripping read!) but I was very struck by how close your understanding of hell is to that of the church father Origen of Alexandria (c. 184 – c. 253) writing in his De Principiis (Book II).

Origen explained in his exegesis of the Bible, as you do so well in the above, that hell is a psycho-spiritual state of ignorance and its attendant consequences upon the soul, rather than a judgement imposed externally by God involving literal hellfire:


CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


4. We find in the prophet Isaiah, that the fire with which each one is punished is described as his own; for he says, Walk in the light of your own fire, and in the flame which you have kindled. By these words it seems to be indicated that every sinner kindles for himself the flame of his own fire, and is not plunged into some fire which has been already kindled by another, or was in existence before himself. Of this fire the fuel and food are our sins, which are called by the Apostle Paul wood, and hay, and stubble.

And I think that, as abundance of food, and provisions of a contrary kind and amount, breed fevers in the body, and fevers, too, of different sorts and duration, according to the proportion in which the collected poison supplies material and fuel for disease (the quality of this material, gathered together from different poisons, proving the causes either of a more acute or more lingering disease); so, when the soul has gathered together a multitude of evil works, and an abundance of sins against itself, at a suitable time all that assembly of evils boils up to punishment, and is set on fire to chastisements; when the mind itself, or conscience, receiving by divine power into the memory all those things of which it had stamped on itself certain signs and forms at the moment of sinning, will see a kind of history, as it were, of all the foul, and shameful, and unholy deeds which it has done, exposed before its eyes: then is the conscience itself harassed, and, pierced by its own goads, becomes an accuser and a witness against itself.

And this, I think, was the opinion of the Apostle Paul himself, when he said, Their thoughts mutually accusing or excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel. From which it is understood that around the substance of the soul certain tortures are produced by the hurtful affections of sins themselves.

8. But the outer darkness, in my judgment, is to be understood not so much of some dark atmosphere without any light, as of those persons who, being plunged in the darkness of profound ignorance, have been placed beyond the reach of any light of the understanding...


This ancient Alexandrian Christian understanding of the metaphorical nature of hellfire and the 'outer darkness' as a state of being, characterised by ignorance and the pain of conscience wrestling with one's mistakes in life, was complemented by the near-contemporary Eastern Christian belief expressed by the Syriac Church Father Saint Isaac the Syrian (a 7th century father, venerated as a saint in both the Catholic & Eastern Christian churches) that heaven and hell are both postmortem encounters with the Love of God, albeit experienced differently as a result of the different conditions of souls:


Those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and more violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to suppose that sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love.. is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion – remorse.’

[St. Isaac of Nineveh, ‘Ascetic Treatises’, p 326]​


This was echoed by a number of the medieval Catholic mystics:


"Even though the eagle, king of birds, can with his powerful sight gaze steadfastly upon the brightness of the sun; yet do the weaker eyes of the bat fail and falter in the same"

(Blessed John of Ruysbroeck (The Twelve Beguines, XII), 1363)

After the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church has reaffirmed the doctrinal primacy of this ancient Origenist understanding of hell as a state of being rather than a place of punishment:


Heaven, Hell and Purgatory


Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him...

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture:

"The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject (n. 1033)."


28 July 1999 | John Paul II

It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life....

“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love.
 
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