WWII and Israel

[tumbleweed41]

I am a fan of Alternate History fiction, along with Historical non-fiction.
Recently I have wondered if the events leading to the Second World War had been prevented, would Israel exist as a nation today? For that matter, what would a map of Europe and Asia look like today?

I would like others thoughts on this, considering all other factors of the mid 20th Century other than the outbreak of WWII.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Recently I have wondered if the events leading to the Second World War had been prevented, would Israel exist as a nation today? For that matter, what would a map of Europe and Asia look like today?

• I doubt it.
• I haven't a clue.

 

[tumbleweed41]

• I doubt it.
• I haven't a clue.

As to (a), given the anti-Semitic attitudes prevalent in many European countries at the time, do you think the plight of the Jewish populations in Europe would have steadily worsened over time?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

In many places, yes.

 

[tumbleweed41]

(Full disclosure, I am writing a short story based on the alternate history described in the OP, just needing others input on what you think the implications would have been.)

 

[tumbleweed41]

Map of Europe in 1939,

 

[Caladan]

I think a few directions you need to look at are the Zionist movement and its operations to establish a national homeland for Jews, Jewish pioneers and immigration to Palestine 19th century and onwards. In other words Jewish efforts to to make a national homeland a reality.
In addition I would look into the borders drawing of the postcolonial period. Israel was not the only new state that was formed in a post British and post French Middle East. Many new countries were formed, many of which with loose cultural cohesion. For example when we look at Syria at the moment, another country which was created post colonial era we see all the cultural and ethnic tensions materializing into a civil war. In this regard, some ethnic groups like the Kurds for example still aspire to and work to shape a national homeland for themselves, while some groups have succeeded, like the Jews.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I think a few directions you need to look at are the Zionist movement and its operations to establish a national homeland for Jews, Jewish pioneers and immigration to Palestine 19th century and onwards. In other words Jewish efforts to to make a national homeland a reality.
In addition I would look into the borders drawing of the postcolonial period. Israel was not the only new state that was formed in a post British and post French Middle East. Many new countries were formed, many of which with loose cultural cohesion. For example when we look at Syria at the moment, another country which was created post colonial era we see all the cultural and ethnic tensions materializing into a civil war. In this regard, some ethnic groups like the Kurds for example still aspire to and work to shape a national homeland for themselves, while some groups have succeeded, like the Jews.

Thanks Caladan!

After the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Jewish settlers began moving to Palestine and building communities, but there was already tension between the new settlers and Palestinians.
I wonder if Britain had not been distracted by the events leading to WWII, would their support of a Jewish homeland led to inevitable conflict in the area? And where would the rest of Europe stand on the issue. And for that matter, as you mentioned, the growing resentment to European imperialism in the Middle East would factor into any conflict in the area also.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

After the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Jewish settlers began moving to Palestine and building communities, but there was already tension between the new settlers and Palestinians.

Some did. Again, see Sachar. As for Balfour, history is fragile. There may never have been a Balfour Declaration had not a young Sarah Aaronsohn not taken a train ride back from Constantinople and, in doing so, found herself exposed to the Armenian genocide.

 

[Caladan]

Thanks Caladan!

After the Balfour Declaration in 1917, Jewish settlers began moving to Palestine and building communities, but there was already tension between the new settlers and Palestinians.
I wonder if Britain had not been distracted by the events leading to WWII, would their support of a Jewish homeland led to inevitable conflict in the area? And where would the rest of Europe stand on the issue. And for that matter, as you mentioned, the growing resentment to European imperialism in the Middle East would factor into any conflict in the area also.

My beginning point is that Israel is not the only nation which could have been absent from the Middle East. Many other countries were created around Israel in the postcolonial era, many of these borders were drawn arbitrarily, the Israeli-Arab conflicts, or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are not the only result of the land disputes. Many other countries in the region suffered tensions and wars because of postcolonial border disputes. It's just that these other conflicts and disagreements are not as discussed in the media as the Israeli-Arab issue.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Thanks for the input guys.

It will indeed be a challenge to look at every factor affecting European and Middle Eastern history pre-WWII and beyond.

 

[Rakhel]

I think Israel would have existed. Maybe not as soon or as violent as it did, seeing as how there were multiple exoduses to the area even prior to Balfour, Israel would have still coming into being.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am a fan of Alternate History fiction, along with Historical non-fiction.
Recently I have wondered if the events leading to the Second World War had been prevented, would Israel exist as a nation today? For that matter, what would a map of Europe and Asia look like today?

I would like others thoughts on this, considering all other factors of the mid 20th Century other than the outbreak of WWII.

Any ideas on how exactly WW II would be avoided? By way of social and political enlightnment that would prevent WW I and therefore make WW II unnecessary, perhaps? Or by having a more realistic and compassionate Treaty of Versailles?

Or something more radical instead - say, communists taking power in Germany and refusing an alliance with Italy and Japan? Japan having a strong and timely popular backslash against its own actions in China and getting away from militaristic bent early on? Or perhaps widespread fatal disease making war an impossibility despite hatred and political unease?

 

[LuisDantas]

For what it is worth, and choosing what I see as the more conservative deviations from established historical fact, it seems to me that Israel would indeed eventually open for business, and it would still have considerable foreign support, although hardly anything near the current level. It wouldn't necessarily be more peaceful or less troubled a region, either, but odds are good that it would have considerably less military power. It would also be somewhat tamer in political terms.

As for the European map, Germany would of course be considerably bigger, and Italy would perhaps have been split in northern and southern separate countries. The URSS might have been emboldened somewhat and perhaps conquered alliances of various degrees of significance with more republics further West. Other than that, probably not a whole lot of change that reflects on the map.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Any ideas on how exactly WW II would be avoided? By way of social and political enlightnment that would prevent WW I and therefore make WW II unnecessary, perhaps? Or by having a more realistic and compassionate Treaty of Versailles?

Or something more radical instead - say, communists taking power in Germany and refusing an alliance with Italy and Japan? Japan having a strong and timely popular backslash against its own actions in China and getting away from militaristic bent early on? Or perhaps widespread fatal disease making war an impossibility despite hatred and political unease?

Looking at what could have prevented the rise of the of the National Socialist party in Germany. Most likely removing the influence of Oswald Spengler through, as you suggest, a more realistic and less retributional Treaty ending WWI.

 

[arhys]

Israel hasn't much to do with World War II. We have premillennialist nutbars like Orde Wingate to thank for it, instead. Check out the ludicrously ethno-pompous (but thoroughly English) "theory" of British Israelism. Then get a load of Christian Restorationism. "Restoring" the Jews to the Holy Land was nothing more than an eschatological experiment.

 

[Pagan_Patriot]

I thought the Zionist movement started in the 1920's. I think it would exist. I know it's part of scriptures of the Abrahamic religions for the Jews to return to Israel, so I'm guessing it would happen either way.

 

[Levite]

I tend to think that Israel would have come into existence anyhow. Zionism was well established as a movement before WWII. Probably it would've happened a little later, and the shape of the borders might be different, but....

If I had to guess (I also love alternate histories), I would guess in the 1950s or 1960s, when the other remaining Third-World British colonies began to revolt or agitate for independence. Which I also think would've happened apace, since the slow dismantling of the British Empire was begun before WWII.

 

[dantech]

Well, there were 250 000+ Jews who left Morocco starting 1945. Times were becoming exceedingly hard for them and they needed a country to go to.
Some went to France, Spain, and other countries around Europe, but most went to Israel. I think that if they didn't have Israel to go to, the Moroccan Jews would have pushed more along with the already existing Zionist movement. Either that, or they would have ended up in Europe somewhere, like the rest of them.

PS: random fact.
There were around 350 000 Jews in Moroccan in the early 1940s, but today fewer than 8000 remain.

 

[Clarity]

I am a fan of Alternate History fiction, along with Historical non-fiction.
Recently I have wondered if the events leading to the Second World War had been prevented, would Israel exist as a nation today? For that matter, what would a map of Europe and Asia look like today?

I would like others thoughts on this, considering all other factors of the mid 20th Century other than the outbreak of WWII.

I would give you a likely yes.

The pogroms in Russia were escalating, forcing Jews into Europe by the tens of millions. The combination of Zionism (from the late 1800s) and the anti-Semitic violence that existed in Europe with or without Hitler would have caused some migration to Israel anyway.

The expiration of the British Mandate was the ultimate trigger for Israel's independence, not WW II, so yes, it would very likely have happened.