Y we got unenlightened if we were enlightened sometime ?

[manbangs]

Hi ppl...
I want to query here abt a question whose answer i didn't get anywhere yet.
If we are going back to the Tao as our practice then why did we get separated from the tao ?
What happened that made us un-enlightened for which we have to get enlightened.

& once we r enlightened or one with Tao then it is said that one doesn't fall in sufferings ever !
on other hand they say that all were beginninglessly enlightened !
How can all it be possible ?

So, i don't understand these contradicting philosophies !
Can anyone here explain it ??

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I'm a little confused about how you're using the term "Tao", especially on a Buddhist board, but I'll try to answer your question as best as I understand it. We are not born enlightened, nor are we, in a previous lifetime, enlightened. Enlightenment comes after many lifetimes of practice. It is the end result of much training, not the beginning. We are born into the cycle of samsara, without any knowledge of the true nature of reality. As such, we are shackled to our wrong views, the five hindrances, the fetters, and practice the three poisons, because we have no understanding. It takes practicing meditation, and following the Noble Eightfold Path, to break free from suffering, it's cause of craving, and the Three Marks of Existence and the Five Skandhas. Only after we have done all of this, do we experience enlightenment. What I think you are doing is confusing Taoist philosophy with Buddhist philosophy. Maybe if you could clarify your views and question some?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Hi ppl...
I want to query here abt a question whose answer i didn't get anywhere yet.
If we are going back to the Tao as our practice then why did we get separated from the tao ?
What happened that made us un-enlightened for which we have to get enlightened.

& once we r enlightened or one with Tao then it is said that one doesn't fall in sufferings ever !
on other hand they say that all were beginninglessly enlightened !
How can all it be possible ?

So, i don't understand these contradicting philosophies !
Can anyone here explain it ??

Taoism and Buddhism aren't exactly the same thing. That being said. Enlightenment is not something to be attained. If you think you attained it, you never had it. Enlightenment cannot be attained, defined, or anything.

 

[manbangs]

In my view being one with Tao is same as being one with Buddha !
These r the same things. Tao is the way of enlightenment of attaining Buddhahood only !
Difference is that Taoism focuses on body & Buddhism on mind ! But final goal is same of both !
Dats to attain Tao of Buddha !
Dats y i said so !

But u tell me one thing...
What I read in Buddhist texts is that everything that exists is part of the one whole system.
& Vajrayaan Buddhism says that beginninglessly all were enlightened !
Dats what I was speaking of !!!

 

[Rainbow Mage]

In my view being one with Tao is same as being one with Buddha !
These r the same things. Tao is the way of enlightenment of attaining Buddhahood only !
Difference is that Taoism focuses on body & Buddhism on mind ! But final goal is same of both !
Dats to attain Tao of Buddha !
Dats y i said so !

But u tell me one thing...
What I read in Buddhist texts is that everything that exists is part of the one whole system.
& Vajrayaan Buddhism says that beginninglessly all were enlightened !
Dats what I was speaking of !!!

In China Buddhism and Taoism are often syncretized together, but that doesn't mean the two are mutually the same thing. I agree that the Tao and Buddahood are probably the same thing, but there is no Tao in Buddhist vocabulary.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

In my view being one with Tao is same as being one with Buddha !
These r the same things. Tao is the way of enlightenment of attaining Buddhahood only !
Difference is that Taoism focuses on body & Buddhism on mind ! But final goal is same of both !
Dats to attain Tao of Buddha !
Dats y i said so !

But u tell me one thing...
What I read in Buddhist texts is that everything that exists is part of the one whole system.
& Vajrayaan Buddhism says that beginninglessly all were enlightened !
Dats what I was speaking of !!!

First, one doesn't try to become "one with Buddha". That sounds like western mysticism. One simply realizes his latent Buddha-nature. And you are right about everything that exists being part of one another, but not necessarily in a pantheistic kind of way. All conditioned things are reliant on all other conditioned things in a web of cause and effect. Nothing can exist independently of anything else. As far as the Vajrayana texts declaring that all beings were enlightened beforehand, I can't comment on, because I have no knowledge of this. I'm still in the beginning stages of studying the Vajrayana system, but I can say that neither the Theravada nor Mahayana schools believe this.

 

[manbangs]

In China Buddhism and Taoism are often syncretized together, but that doesn't mean the two are mutually the same thing. I agree that the Tao and Buddahood are probably the same thing, but there is no Tao in Buddhist vocabulary.

the reason there is no Tao word used in Buddhism becoz 'Tao' is a chinese word meaning "The Way" or "The Way of Gods" & also referring to "one who has no name" or "emptiness" & on other hand Buddhism spread from India !
So the sanskrit word "Bodhi" became known !

But in ancient Chinese Buddhist Legends I found them using the word Tao.
In many movies they show being used by Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, & many others !

& even if u leave away the Tao part...
I ask that Vajrayaan itself says that in beginningless beginning we all were enlightened.
If dats the truth then what made us un-enlightened ???
How did we fall into the sufferings ???
Where did the game of birth & death start ???
Dats the main thing I ask abt !!!

 

[Rainbow Mage]

& even if u leave away the Tao part...
I ask that Vajrayaan itself says that in beginningless beginning we all were enlightened.
If dats the truth then what made us un-enlightened ???
How did we fall into the sufferings ???
Where did the game of birth & death start ???
Dats the main thing I ask abt !!!

What makes one un-enlightened as you put it is the illusion of seperation. If the illusion of seperation is not present then everything is enlightenment. This is why there is no words to define enlightenment, because words bring in duality. Suffering is a part of the physical existence. Birth and death are also part of the physical existence.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Tao means "way" or "path". Bodhi means enlightened. And Zen teachers used the word Tao, but not in the same way Taoists do. Confucians use the word Tao. And even in Chinese translations of the Bible, where the New Testament uses the Greek word Logos and the English translation Word, the Chinese uses Tao. So, even for those Buddhists who used the word Tao, it meant something different to them than to the Taoists.

 

[manbangs]

First, one doesn't try to become "one with Buddha". That sounds like western mysticism. One simply realizes his latent Buddha-nature. And you are right about everything that exists being part of one another, but not necessarily in a pantheistic kind of way. All conditioned things are reliant on all other conditioned things in a web of cause and effect. Nothing can exist independently of anything else. As far as the Vajrayana texts declaring that all beings were enlightened beforehand, I can't comment on, because I have no knowledge of this. I'm still in the beginning stages of studying the Vajrayana system, but I can say that neither the Theravada nor Mahayana schools believe this.

thanx for ur reply matt...
but, realization is what ? Yoga with higher self only...
getting awakened...
& what is yoga ? yoga means unison.
& unison means being one with ur deity.
dat is going from dual to non-dual mode !
u can still check it if u feel it's wrong !

if theravada & mahayana schools don't believe this then wats their belief ?
& wats ur belief ??
we become Buddha & get free from sufferings forever.
then think abt the beginning . it's an important question !
I searched it in lots of places but didn't get a satisfying answer ever .

if talk abt Tao then there we say returning back to the Tao !
if we are returning back then what sent us away from Tao ???

& what do theravada & mahayana say abt the beginning ?
do they mean that we came out from some dustbin & becoz of that we hv to attain enlightenment ?
& dat,...ppl will keep coming out of dustbin & so they will keep needing to attain enlightenment ???
it's not clear !
though i believe in enlightenment, but don't understand this beginning part ever !

 

[manbangs]

Tao means "way" or "path". Bodhi means enlightened. And Zen teachers used the word Tao, but not in the same way Taoists do. Confucians use the word Tao. And even in Chinese translations of the Bible, where the New Testament uses the Greek word Logos and the English translation Word, the Chinese uses Tao. So, even for those Buddhists who used the word Tao, it meant something different to them than to the Taoists.

well u maybe true as u seem to be true !
but i've seen in legendary chinese buddhist stories where taoism & buddhism is being practiced at the same time...
where deities of buddhism & taoism hv to be respectful to each other !
where they speak also that taoism is just another school for attaining enlightenment of buddhism !
so, it gives an idea dat they both hv same awakening goals !

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

thanx for ur reply matt...
but, realization is what ? Yoga with higher self only...
getting awakened...
& what is yoga ? yoga means unison.
& unison means being one with ur deity.
dat is going from dual to non-dual mode !
u can still check it if u feel it's wrong !

if theravada & mahayana schools don't believe this then wats their belief ?
& wats ur belief ??
we become Buddha & get free from sufferings forever.
then think abt the beginning . it's an important question !
I searched it in lots of places but didn't get a satisfying answer ever .

if talk abt Tao then there we say returning back to the Tao !
if we are returning back then what sent us away from Tao ???

& what do theravada & mahayana say abt the beginning ?
do they mean that we came out from some dustbin & becoz of that we hv to attain enlightenment ?
& dat,...ppl will keep coming out of dustbin & so they will keep needing to attain enlightenment ???
it's not clear !
though i believe in enlightenment, but don't understand this beginning part ever !

Yoga is a word you only see in Vajrayana Buddhism. It's not encountered so much in other schools. There is no unification with a deity necessary to understand and move into a non-dual existence. Buddhism as a whole is built on the idea that the mind controls the body, because the things of the body, and the physical realm, are illusions. This is not dualism, this is monism, or non-dualism. And as far as the beginning goes, it's not an important question. When the Buddha was asked about the beginning, he refused to answer, saying only that worrying about it, or even knowing about it, did not bring one any closer to enlightenment, and in face, could actually take one further away from it. And with realization, there are many steps on the path to the ultimate goal, which is Nirvana.

 

[manbangs]

What makes one un-enlightened as you put it is the illusion of seperation. If the illusion of seperation is not present then everything is enlightenment. This is why there is no words to define enlightenment, because words bring in duality. Suffering is a part of the physical existence. Birth and death are also part of the physical existence.

oki illusion makes it .
but even now u didn't answer my question.
if u say this then tell where did the illusion came from ?
how illusion can make buddha who is permanently enlightened become un-enlightened or fall in illusions of duality ???

 

[manbangs]

Yoga is a word you only see in Vajrayana Buddhism. It's not encountered so much in other schools. There is no unification with a deity necessary to understand and move into a non-dual existence. Buddhism as a whole is built on the idea that the mind controls the body, because the things of the body, and the physical realm, are illusions. This is not dualism, this is monism, or non-dualism. And as far as the beginning goes, it's not an important question. When the Buddha was asked about the beginning, he refused to answer, saying only that worrying about it, or even knowing about it, did not bring one any closer to enlightenment, and in face, could actually take one further away from it. And with realization, there are many steps on the path to the ultimate goal, which is Nirvana.

understanding everything is a part of enlightenment.
so y not understanding the beginning ???

 

[manbangs]

& also vajrayaan is the fastest path of enlightenment !
Even Siddharth Gautam Buddha is known to be a secret master of Tantra !
So, Vajrayaan's view is more important !

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

& also vajrayaan is the fastest path of enlightenment !
Even Siddharth Gautam Buddha is known to be a secret master of Tantra !
So, Vajrayaan's view is more important !

How is Vajrayana the fastest path to enlightenment? In the Pali canon, the Buddha said that the quickest one can attain enlightenment, if I'm not mistaken, is seven days. Although this would be extremely rare, but not theoretical, as the scripture gives an example, if I'm not mistaken. The Vajrayan view is simply an addition to the earlier schools, not taking the place of them. Buddhism, particularly the different schools, don't operate in the same way as, say, the denominations in Buddhism. Each successive school adds onto the earlier ones, so they are all important, and describe the stages one has to go through. Whether or not the Buddha was a master of Tantra is debatable, and ultimately, unimportant, as he taught people according to their understanding and what would help them the most, meaning that, even if the Buddha did secretly teach Tantra, it is not for everybody.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

understanding everything is a part of enlightenment.
so y not understanding the beginning ???

The Buddha never said he didn't understand or know the beginning, but that it wasn't important. But I imagine that once a person reaches enlightenment, they too will understand the beginning. But that understanding is not important to reaching the goal of enlightenment, just one of the rewards, so to speak.

 

[manbangs]

well if Gautam Buddha said abt enlightenment in seven days, then i say in vajrayana Buddhism it's possible in 3 days or even 1 day !
It's possible through transmission from a deity / enlightened master !
& what do u believe that tantra is not a part of buddhism ???
didn't u hear stories of wrathful deities like Vajrapaani, Mahaakaal, etc. out of vajrayaan related with Gautam Buddha himself ??
& don't u believe b4 entering Nirvana he said that another Buddha (Padmasambhava) will take birth in Odiyana's Dhanakosha lake , etc.. & dat he will teach more than Gautam Buddha & he will give the teachings of Tantra ???
So, what do u feel abt Taantrik Buddhism ? is it all fake ??

 

[manbangs]

The Buddha never said he didn't understand or know the beginning, but that it wasn't important. But I imagine that once a person reaches enlightenment, they too will understand the beginning. But that understanding is not important to reaching the goal of enlightenment, just one of the rewards, so to speak.

enlightenment is the gr8est thing I say !
but knowing somethings solve our lives very deeply !
else we hv to go thru foolish ways manytimes !
so dat question is in very high regard for me !

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

well if Gautam Buddha said abt enlightenment in seven days, then i say in vajrayana Buddhism it's possible in 3 days or even 1 day !
It's possible through transmission from a deity / enlightened master !
& what do u believe that tantra is not a part of buddhism ???
didn't u hear stories of wrathful deities like Vajrapaani, Mahaakaal, etc. out of vajrayaan related with Gautam Buddha himself ??
& don't u believe b4 entering Nirvana he said that another Buddha (Padmasambhava) will take birth in Odiyana's Dhanakosha lake , etc.. & dat he will teach more than Gautam Buddha & he will give the teachings of Tantra ???
So, what do u feel abt Taantrik Buddhism ? is it all fake ??

As of right now, I have no real ideas about Tantric Buddhism, although I am interested in studying it more. As far as enlightenment being transferred from a deity, this is incorrect, and is not what the Buddha taught. Enlightenment can only be reached by ourselves and our own efforts, it cannot be transferred, like salvation in Christianity. The Buddha said that only we can save ourselves.