Yahweh is immoral

[muhammad_isa]

And I'll add that a serial killer sentenced to death can accept the one true God, go through the process of having his sins absolved, and then he can go to heaven after death for all eternity. That is disgustingly immoral.

No it isn't.
You haven't said anything about the billion years that the person might be in hell/purgatory before they enter heaven.
If you think that you are smarter than G-d; fairer than G-d; then G-d help you!

 

[muhammad_isa]

According to your religion, I would be one who is deserving of hell. Just for believing differently. Is that just?

According to "my religion", only G-d knows who will be in heaven or hell.

We are warned of the consequences of following falsehood .. yes.
..but don't forget, G-d is the fairest of ALL judges. He is impartial. He is not a racist .. not a feminist .. not a *****.

If you don't believe what I believe, then that is up to you.
I don't know what will happen to me after I die, let alone you.
It is not my business.

However, that does not mean that I don't wish good for others as I wish for myself.

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

Most Christians don't believe such nonsense. There is such a thing as moral culpability. It's the same reason why we don't send child murderers to death row or life in prison, in civilized societies. We don't expect them to have the same moral responsibility as an adult. It's similar with religious or cultural differences. If you are from a culture where Christianity isn't the standard and you have not had the Gospel presented to you authentically, you're not held accountable morally for not believing it, because it isn't reasonably expected for you, in such a situation, to know any better. You can't be held responsible for not believing in the Nicene Creed if you've never heard of it and don't really know what it means. Christianity is based on informed consent as to accepting or rejecting it.

I said the women heard of other religions but chose Hinduism. In other words, she rejected Christianity.

Do you believe the commands of God are nonsense? Rule # 1:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

 

[firedragon]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

How do you know what Hashem does?

P.S. You know I would like to urge you not to use the name of God because as you know Jews revere it too much. I am no one to tell you, but I just urge you. If you can.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

1) The Bible indicates that anyone trusting God for salvation is saved. Are you sure this person is lost?

2) The Bible indicates that only perfect people can live in a utopia. Even the "perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person" is imperfect and must be TRANSFORMED to be saved. The Bible indicates that the source of transformation is trusting Jesus for salvation.

Thanks.

 

[Kenny]

Yahweh is definitely immoral. Modern Christians will say Hell is not real but Yahweh still killed (men, women, babies, animals, enslaved women and children (or worse)) for worshipping the wrong God.
Brainwashed Christians will try to tell you the entire cities were somehow all evil, as if even the babies were breathing fire and killing other babies.


Women/children/babies of war are plunder-
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

murder, murder, murder

However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 20

Not "please don't do the detestable things they do" or "since I'm Yahweh and obviously the only real God you obviously won't do whatever weird stuff they do in their religion so I'm not worried"?

As if the Israelites would invade the Hittites and be like "Oh hey, Yahweh sent us to defeat you, y'know, Yahweh the actual real Supreme God with real God powers. Boy did we get lucky that the supreme God of reality chose us! Uh, hey what's that, a church? Can I go check it out? Wow, I'm going to convert to this fake religion and sin against my real supreme God of the universe! "Sin, sin, sin....kill babies, sin..." Darn, If I only read Deuteronomy 20 more!"

BTW, killing everything in 6 cities IS KILLING A LOT OF BABIES.


Obviously, Yahweh is a fictional national God. Uprgaded to supreme during the Greek occupation.

"Hellenistic traits adopted by Judaism:
-Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme

-this led to a change from concern for a religion of national prosperity to one for individual salvation, from focus on a particular ethnic group to concern for every human. The prophet or saviour replaced the priest and king as the chief religious figure. "


-his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus.

By reading this, you would have Japan to continue the rape of Nanking across the globe.

WOW! I'm glad you aren't in charge.

 

[soulsurvivor]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

There are other reasons why Yahweh may not be the one 'true' God - how can a 'true' God be angry and jealous? But actually it maybe that he has never said all those things and the writers of the OT just made it up.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

However, lets not take this out of context.
When YHWH said this, He personally spoke to Israel, and Moses.
They saw Him and the miracles He performed.
However, there were still some Israelites that thought their pagan idols are more real than the living God they knew took them from Egypt.

They reseived the law that they should not have other gods in His presence.
This has nothing to do with people who never heard of YHWH before.
On the contrary, there are many examples of people who never heard of YHWH, or Jesus, who would not have been condemned.
God does not love institutions, but the spirit and mind of Man.

As Jesus rightly said, you condemn yourself.

Just to ad on my point.
Do you think God loves people that ritually perform worship as a mass of collected people in a Mosque or Church?
Is it of value to God if one performs high praise where everyone sees you being so high and holy?
Or walking around in clothing where you show you are somehow more holy than everyone else?
Teaching others not to do something you think is wrong, forgetting your own sin?
Jesus said, these people had their reward.

To be clear, I don't support the "don't believe, get punished" idea, but it is a thing some folks believe, and often based on Biblical quotes like the one above as well as doctrines of sola fide:

Sola fide - Wikipedia

So I don't think the OP is unjustified in considering the problem.

 

[PruePhillip]

My argument is simple.
It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.

A girl is born in Pakistan into a Hindu family. Throughout her life she proves over and over again that she is the perfect archetype of a principle centered moral and just person. She has heard about other religions but practices Hindu faith becuse she was born into it.

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Is it a sin if a married man loves another woman - that's jealousy.?
And God is a jealous God - that's a sin, no?

And it's a sin to fine or jail a person for doing wrong, why not forgive and forget?
And God punishes wrong doing - that's a sin, no?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not according to Christians, Muslims and Jews

God is not bound by what people think. He can hear and answer anyone’s prayer He so wishes.

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

.. and who says this? I certainly do not.

Christians, Jews, and Muslims do.

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

I think the reason why you ask this question, is simply because you assign some idea that one's religion dictates your afterlife.
I never believed that a certain Church or religion is the way to heaven or hell.

Believing such is making God out as a GANG LEADER.

Nope, God Judges people on their own consciense.

Here is what the Bible say, not the assumption you made.
1 Sam 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.”
Jeremiah 17:10
I, Yahweh, examine the mind, I test the heart to give to each according to his way, according to what his actions deserve.
1 Chronicles 28:9
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.
Psalm 44:21
Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.

Why is everyone denying this! It's very clear, if you worship a different god you are breaking the first commandment. Children all over the world have been taught that hell awaits those who disobey Yahweh (or Allah) and heaven ( or paradise) awaits those who obey.

 

[Link]

Per Quran, God took a promise from us before we come to this world, that we would recognize God and worship him no matter what people tell us:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ ۖ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ ۛ شَهِدْنَا ۛ أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ | When your Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their descendants and made them bear witness over themselves, [He said to them,] ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They said, ‘Yes indeed! We bear witness.’ [This,] lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘Indeed we were unaware of this,’ | Al-A'raaf : 172

The issue is human reason tells us we shouldn't follow forefathers just because we are born into a religion, and hence this is not an excuse.

Ultimately, it's the name of God that is with all things and makes them glorify God, and hence we are not only required to recognize God, but his instances of his name, by which we are to approach him by.

"By the name of God The Compassionate (universally), The Compassionate (Extensively) say O You who disbelieve, I don't Worship that which you worship. Nor Do you Worship that which I Worship"

Ultimately, only the humans due to God's Name - who will not be in loss, are those who enjoin truth and enjoin patience.

Now you might say a person born into a religion has advantage. This may or may not be the case, a lot of people born into a proper religion don't investigate properly, are hypocrites with regards to it, and don't approach it's guidance per it's methods but mix in it falsehood. This too is unaccepted by God.

While a person who comes to the religion might take it more seriously and be more sincere to it's truth and not mix with it falsehood, and hence, the trial is not as unfair in this regards as you think.

This is because hypocrisy is condemned as well "Do you enjoin people righteousness and forget yourselves while you read the book? Will you not use your mind?" - Surah 2.

 

[metis]

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

That's only if a person is a scriptural literalist, thus believing in biblical inerrancy, which most denominations today don't mandate.

 

[metis]

The idea that one supposedly must believe and accept belief in one specific set of scriptures stands to no sense, imo. Let me explain.

Moses existed roughly somewhat over 3000 years b.p., and Jesus existed around 2000 years b.p. OTOH, yet we know that humans existed as humans more than 5,000,000 years ago. So for you math whizzes, do the math: 3000/5,000,000 = ? So, didn't God care about those who existed throughout most of human history?

And both Moses and Jesus lived in one small area of the world, so didn't God care about those people who lived in other areas of the world, such as in the Americas for example?

This, and some other things, decades ago led me to believe that God goes well beyond our concept of time and space, thus must be universal in nature.

I'll stop here as of now, but please don't stone the messenger, OK?

 

[Ashoka]

We are warned of the consequences of following falsehood .. yes.

So the consequences of someone believing differently is hell? Again, how is that just?

 

[1213]

My argument is simple.

It is immoral to send a good person to hell for the sin of worshiping another god.
...
If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Bible tells only God is good.

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

Eternal life is for righteous and hell is for those who are unrighteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

I don’t think righteous person would keep something wrong as his God. But, I believe it is possible that person who has not heard of Jesus can be counted righteous by this way:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

Per Quran, God took a promise from us before we come to this world, that we would recognize God and worship him no matter what people tell us:

وَإِذْ أَخَذَ رَبُّكَ مِنْ بَنِي آدَمَ مِنْ ظُهُورِهِمْ ذُرِّيَّتَهُمْ وَأَشْهَدَهُمْ عَلَىٰ أَنْفُسِهِمْ أَلَسْتُ بِرَبِّكُمْ ۖ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ ۛ شَهِدْنَا ۛ أَنْ تَقُولُوا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِنَّا كُنَّا عَنْ هَٰذَا غَافِلِينَ | When your Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their descendants and made them bear witness over themselves, [He said to them,] ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They said, ‘Yes indeed! We bear witness.’ [This,] lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, ‘Indeed we were unaware of this,’ | Al-A'raaf : 172

The issue is human reason tells us we shouldn't follow forefathers just because we are born into a religion, and hence this is not an excuse.

Ultimately, it's the name of God that is with all things and makes them glorify God, and hence we are not only required to recognize God, but his instances of his name, by which we are to approach him by.

"By the name of God The Compassionate (universally), The Compassionate (Extensively) say O You who disbelieve, I don't Worship that which you worship. Nor Do you Worship that which I Worship"

Ultimately, only the humans due to God's Name - who will not be in loss, are those who enjoin truth and enjoin patience.

Now you might say a person born into a religion has advantage. This may or may not be the case, a lot of people born into a proper religion don't investigate properly, are hypocrites with regards to it, and don't approach it's guidance per it's methods but mix in it falsehood. This too is unaccepted by God.

While a person who comes to the religion might take it more seriously and be more sincere to it's truth and not mix with it falsehood, and hence, the trial is not as unfair in this regards as you think.

This is because hypocrisy is condemned as well "Do you enjoin people righteousness and forget yourselves while you read the book? Will you not use your mind?" - Surah 2.

So do you think God is right to deny this women in my example of paradise in the afterlife?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So the consequences of someone believing differently is hell? Again, how is that just?

Well, many people don't think it is 'fair' just being alive.
Many people don't think reality is fair.

Is it fair, that there are consequences for not taking responsibility?
It is so easy to say that something is not fair.

The bottom line, is that nobody will be wronged after death.
As I've already said, G-d knows very well what is in the depths of our souls, and if we are hiding something.

A person who does nothing wrong has nothing to fear. If you think that scriptures aren't true, then G-d knows why you think so. Nothing is hidden from G-d.

 

[Link]

So do you think God is right to deny this women in my example of paradise in the afterlife?

I think every human who doesn't go to God's door and is arrogant towards his treasured signs and guidance and doesn't strive for God and finding his ways and path, can't be righteous, no matter how much they convince themselves.

The spiritual Guides in the journey are needed and darkness cannot be dispelled save by light.

False eyes can't make the journey of truth and the path unseen needs vision of truth. We don't choose what God's path is nor is for us to choose those who are to approach God through nor are we free to choose those who we take as authorities in religion.

The companions of the path and Masters of it are by which God intercedes upon our path and they intercede by his permission and help us by his command.

Without them, the journey to God is impossible. They are Masters by which goodness is attained through holding on to them and seeing God through their call and being pulled towards God through their power. They are light from God and to be held on to.

Life is not a game. It's our choice to disobey God and his trusted chosen ones, but there is consequence when we turn away from his reminder.

The Quran calls to the family of the reminder and they to the Quran. Together they are God's rope, and I truly believe there is no way to God without his handhold and rope.