Yawheh the creation tribal god?

[Pegg]

Not rue. There is debate.

if it was undoubtedly true, there would be no debate.

And no reason to think it is not Yahweh when Israelites worshipped El, Yahweh, Asherah and Baal before 622 BC

El is the hebrew word 'God'
Just because their word for God happens to be 'El, it does not mean they worshiped the Canaanite god.

Have you never known of a word in a particular language to be the same as in another, but carry a different meaning?

Yw in the Baal Cycle[edit]

Main article: Baal cycle

More recently, the damaged Ugaritic cuneiform text KTU 1.1:IV:14-15 is also included in the discussion:[28]

From KTU II:IV:13-14
tgr.il.bnh.tr [ ] wyn.lt[p]n il dp[id...][29] [J yp 'r] Sm bny yw 'ilt
My son [shall not be called] by the name of Yw, o goddess, [Jfc ym smh (?)] [but Ym shall be his name!]wp'r $m ym
So he proclaimed the name of Yammu.[rbt 'atrt (?)] t'nyn
[Lady Athiratu (?)] answered,lzntn ['at np'rt (?)]
"For our maintenance [you are the one who has been proclaimed (?)][30]
Many scholars[who?] consider yw a reference to Yahweh. Others[who?] consider that yw is unlikely to have be derived from yhw in the second millennium. However the Ugaritic text is read, the verbal play on the similarity between yw and ym (the sea-god Yam) is evident.[31]

How ridiculous!

 

[outhouse]

El is the hebrew word 'God'
Just because their word for God happens to be 'El, it does not mean they worshiped the Canaanite god.

There is no debate here, thanks for playing.


Biased apologetics, wish and want do not determine history.




Early Israelites factually worshipped El as his own god, their polytheism is not up for debate.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah


Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[

 

[vskipper]

A) I think the idea of seeing the OT metaphorically makes the most sense of what I have seen. One could look at it as learning tools that were passed down as a way of helping the tribe know their current role
B) I think the NT can be taken a bit more literally than the old as more people were learning to write & Paul is documented as being highly educated.
C) I ponder anyone that accepts the teaching of anything without questioning it (including so-called accredited professors). When did man become so lazy to stop relying on his own ability to reason & blindly accept the teachings of others? - this is why I consider myself a paradox.

I see those that unquestionably follow the teachings of one book or a professor as lazy & blind as the unquestioning religious follower. I believe man should seek knowledge for himself in as many venues as possible. If the man is incapable of following the procedures used to reach a conclusion then learn those. Then again, perhaps I am just strange.

 

[metis]

Generally speaking, the vast majority of Jews are not literalists, and the most oft used approach is to look for "the meaning behind the words" when in comes to interpretation. Secondly, even if supposedly God had ordered massacres of a people according to the Torah, we still have the Tanakh and Talmud that followed that certainly would prevent us from taking that approach again.

As for God's "name", there I believe are around 16 or so names for God in the scriptures, and these names have different origins. Certainly these names each have some sort of history, but we can't exactly be certain what they are in any detail going back to their supposed origin.

As Jews, the vast majority of us consider our scriptures to be a "work in progress", and the orthodox, for example, spend more time studying Talmud than Torah, although the former reflects the latter and elaborates.

A quick example: you read "an eye for an eye...", and yet the Talmud has it that if there in more than one execution in seven years in the entire country then the courts are being brutal. Obviously the state of Texas certainly ain't following that teaching.

 

[outhouse]

Generally speaking, the vast majority of Jews are not literalists, and the most oft used approach is to look for "the meaning behind the words" when in comes to intrrpretation. .

Love that aspect of Judaism.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Generally speaking, the vast majority of Jews are not literalists

The majority of those who practice modern Judaism are not literalists now, but in the ancient past before Rabbinic Judaism became supreme, the vast majority of the Jews seem to be literalists before the advent of Rabbinic Judaism.

 

[Draupadi]

Generally speaking, the vast majority of Jews are not literalists, and the most oft used approach is to look for "the meaning behind the words" when in comes to interpretation. Secondly, even if supposedly God had ordered massacres of a people according to the Torah, we still have the Tanakh and Talmud that followed that certainly would prevent us from taking that approach again.

As for God's "name", there I believe are around 16 or so names for God in the scriptures, and these names have different origins. Certainly these names each have some sort of history, but we can't exactly be certain what they are in any detail going back to their supposed origin.

As Jews, the vast majority of us consider our scriptures to be a "work in progress", and the orthodox, for example, spend more time studying Talmud than Torah, although the former reflects the latter and elaborates.

A quick example: you read "an eye for an eye...", and yet the Talmud has it that if there in more than one execution in seven years in the entire country then the courts are being brutal. Obviously the state of Texas certainly ain't following that teaching.

If God orders massacre of people in the Torah and the Talmud takes a more peaceful stance, does that mean that the Jewish scholars of the Talmud are doing it right?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

If God orders massacre of people in the Torah and the Talmud takes a more peaceful stance, does that mean that the Jewish scholars of the Talmud are doing it right?

It's nothing but revisionism and redaction. Like the Japanese saying that the Rape of Nanking wasn't really a raping.

 

[outhouse]

If God orders massacre of people in the Torah and the Talmud takes a more peaceful stance, does that mean that the Jewish scholars of the Talmud are doing it right?

I think so.


Much of the conquest of the OT is factual pseudo history and never took place.


Remember these were beaten down oppressed people who had all those violent things done to them, over and over again.

 

[outhouse]

It's nothing but revisionism and redaction. Like the Japanese saying that the Rape of Nanking wasn't really a raping.

NO.

Its realization of what really happened, and shows how a religion evolves forward and away from mythology and pseudo history.

 

[metis]

The majority of those who practice modern Judaism are not literalists now, but in the ancient past before Rabbinic Judaism became supreme, the vast majority of the Jews seem to be literalists before the advent of Rabbinic Judaism.

Very hard to say but it's entirely possible, maybe even probable, to a point. No doubt as time has gone on, people in general have become more skeptical in most religions, and this process continues through today. Where I hesitate is that it's hard very hard to determine when the shift of people's opinions on what was written went from "history" to "scripture".

Secondly, when reading scripture, one even in the long past would undoubtedly notice that there were variations between the narratives at times and sometimes even within the same narrative. If done before a narrative reached the "scripture" stage, it would not at all be problematic for one to understand that different authors can have different takes on events.

 

[metis]

If God orders massacre of people in the Torah and the Talmud takes a more peaceful stance, does that mean that the Jewish scholars of the Talmud are doing it right?

Not necessarily at all. Conditions change and how people may react to different conditions may change with it.

For example, the Genesis and Exodus deal with a time period whereas we we had no jails or prisons, so dealing with a criminal presented a real problem with what to do with them? Once jails and prisons were built, there was no need to use capital punishment anywhere near as much.

 

[Pegg]

There is no debate here, thanks for playing.


Biased apologetics, wish and want do not determine history.
Early Israelites factually worshipped El as his own god, their polytheism is not up for debate.

why dont you ask a hebrew speaking person to tell you what their word for 'god' is in english.

Its El.

This is not apologetics. Its fact. What do we call it when someone refuses to accept facts as facts??

 

[metis]

why dont you ask a hebrew speaking person to tell you what their word for 'god' is in english.

Its El.

"Eloheim". There's roughly 16 different names for God in Torah and Tanakh.

 

[Pegg]

"Eloheim". There's roughly 16 different names for God in Torah and Tanakh.

And even in the bible, Eloheim is used to refer to other pagan gods as well as the Hebrew God YHWH

Eg,
Exodus 18:11 Now I know that Jehovah is greater than all the other gods/elohim

Exodus 22:20 “Whoever sacrifices to any gods/elohim but Jehovah alone is to be devoted to destruction

Deut 10:17  For Jehovah your God/elohim is the God/ha elohim of gods/elohim and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty, and awe-inspiring, who treats none with partiality and does not accept a bribe

 

[Pegg]

Some examples of 'El in the hebrew scriptures:

Genesis 14:18  And Mel·chiz′e·dek king of Sa′lem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of the Most High God('El).


Geneiss 46:3  He said: “I am the true God, the God (ha 'El) of your father. Do not be afraid to go down to Egypt, for there I will make you into a great nation

2Samuel 22:31 The way of the true God('El) is perfect...

Genesis 17;1 When A′bram was 99 years old, Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty ('El Shaddai). Walk before me and prove yourself faultless


'El is also a form of the hebrew word for god.

 

[outhouse]

why dont you ask a hebrew speaking person to tell you what their word for 'god' is in english.

Its El.

This is not apologetics. Its fact. What do we call it when someone refuses to accept facts as facts??

I provided a credible source showing you the polytheistic past of Israelites who factually worshipped El as the father deity.


If you don't like it, too bad. Its just what it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah\


Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved[77] and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god


El and Yahweh had become fused


If you can comprehend English and understand roman numerals, you understand "FOURTH god"

 

[outhouse]

why dont you ask a hebrew speaking person to tell you what their word for 'god' is in english.

Its El.

Who cares what a later interpretation is. Were dealing with a definition before 622 BC not after


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

According to The Oxford Companion to World Mythology,


It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the 'God of Abraham'... If El was the high God of Abraham—Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh—Asherah was his wife, and there are archaeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the 7th century BCE. (See 2 Kings 23:15)".[

 

[Pegg]

Who cares what a later interpretation is. Were dealing with a definition before 622 BC not after


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

According to The Oxford Companion to World Mythology,


It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the 'God of Abraham'... If El was the high God of Abraham—Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh—Asherah was his wife, and there are archaeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the 7th century BCE. (See 2 Kings 23:15)".[

thats ok, just ignore the hebrew language.. you'll be fine.

 

[outhouse]

thats ok, just ignore the hebrew language.. you'll be fine.

I explained to you that definition was adopted after 622BC monotheistic reforms.

Israelites were polytheistic. This is undisputed.

Do I need to look up the word undisputed and post the definition for you. ??


Just ignore reality