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Yay! It's All Me

ajay0

Well-Known Member
None of these are coming from an enlightened perspective.

How can you state whether a perspective is enlightened or not, when you have not attained enlightenment yourself !

If they are inspiring, then the one who is inspired by them is not enlightened.

This is true. They are not enlightened, and that is why they revere the enlightened sage.

'Mahavira ' or 'The great conqueror' is also a term given to the enlightened sage, as he has conquered himself, and this is considered the greatest conquest.

The enlightened sage is also considered divine or associated with manifest divinity due to the upanishadic saying...

Brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati -- 'The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman'. (Mundaka Upanishad 3.2.9)
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
How can you state whether a perspective is enlightened or not, when you have not attained enlightenment yourself !

It's easy to see if a person is not enlightened:

If they consider themself superior to others, then they are not enlightened.
If they aspire to be superior to others, then they are not enlightened.
If they are inspired by others who consider themself superior to others, then they are not enlightened.

If they claim to be a god, but obviously are not, then they are not enlightened.

This is true. They are not enlightened, and that is why they revere the enlightened sage.

So. I was correct. And if I am correct here, then, it is the enlightened perspective NOT to revere the enlightened sage. It would not be proper to reduce them either. If all are one, then all would be considered equal.

The enlightened sage is also considered divine or associated with manifest divinity due to the upanishadic saying...

All are divine. The enlightened-sage is no different.

Brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati -- 'The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman'.

There are 2 and only 2 possibilities if this is literally true:

Case 1: If the knower of Brahman-with-attributes has become Brahman-with-attributes, then the "knower" would possess all "knowledge". A simple test for this is to show them an obscure language. If they do not know it, then they are not Brahman at that moment.

Case 2: If the knower of Brahman-lacking-all-attributes has become Brahman-lacking-all-attributes, then the "knower" would NOT-KNOW any attributes. A simple test for this is if they consider themself enlightened and others are not. If they do, then, they are not Brahman at that moment.

'Mahavira ' or 'The great conqueror' is also a term given to the enlightened sage, as he has conquered himself, and this is considered the greatest conquest.

Whatever conclusion is made about oneself, others, Brahman, enlightenment, etc. All of that is happening in the illusion, the dream, which @SalixIncendium wrote was only an appearance.

This "conqueror" and "conquering" is itself an illusion. The "conquest" is an illusion. "conquering himself" is an illusion. None of that is real IF, big if, it is true what @SalixIncendium wrote.

An enlightened sage remains engaged with the world, even though they realize this perceived reality is only an appearance…that there is no duality. There is only Brahman.

If this is literally true then there is no enlightenment.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
If this is literally true then there is no enlightenment.
From the perspective of the enlightened, there was never anything to be enlightened to.

"There is no dissolution, no birth, none in bondage, none aspiring for wisdom, no seeker of liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth." ~ Guadapada's Mandukya Karika 2.32​
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
From the perspective of the enlightened, there was never anything to be enlightened to.

"There is no dissolution, no birth, none in bondage, none aspiring for wisdom, no seeker of liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth." ~ Guadapada's Mandukya Karika 2.32​

I agree with you. Do you agree with me?
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with you. Do you agree with me?
It depends on what perspective one is making this claim from. From the perspective of ultimate reality (Paramartika), yes, I agree. From the perspective of transactional reality (vyavaharika), no, I do not.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It depends on what perspective one is making this claim from. From the perspective of ultimate reality (Paramartika), yes, I agree. From the perspective of transactional reality (vyavaharika), no, I do not.

Why disagree? The perspective of "transactional reality" is an appearance? Is it real or not? Can it it be trusted? Should it be favored?
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Why disagree? The perspective of "transactional reality" is an appearance? Is it real or not? Can it it be trusted? Should it be favored?
Per Advaita Vedanta, the perspective of vyavaharika is considered incorrect knowledge (avidya).

If you have a ring made of gold, you have the ring (form and use), which is an appearance of gold, and gold itself (the reality of the ring). From the perspective of the ring, is the ring real? Can the form and use be trusted? Should ring be favored over the gold? What about from the perspective of the gold? Whether gold is a ring, a bangle, or a necklace, i.e. regardless of the form and use, the gold is still gold, and to the gold, ring, bangle, and necklace are appearances of gold.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Per Advaita Vedanta, the perspective of vyavaharika is considered incorrect knowledge (avidya).

Then why are you disagreeing with me? This is precisely what I wrote.

Whatever conclusion is made about oneself, others, Brahman, enlightenment, etc. All of that is happening in the illusion, the dream

The disagreement is happening in "the perspective of vyavaharika" is it not? Therefore it is "incorrect knowledge".
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
... And how did I know what was in the hindu scriptures without reading them ...
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Please quote the post where I stated I had not read Hindu scripture.

:facepalm: Please stop assuming I am critisizing you. Hasn't this gone on enough? In repeated threads, and even in private messaging, I have asked you to put down whatever narrative is playing in your mind. Repeatedly I've shown you this narrative is not happening. I even told you it would continue unless we resolved the problem and here it is repeating.

Screenshot_20231024_085914.jpg
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
:facepalm: Please stop assuming I am critisizing you. Hasn't this gone on enough? In repeated threads, and even in private messaging, I have asked you to put down whatever narrative is playing in your mind. Repeatedly I've shown you this narrative is not happening. I even told you it would continue unless we resolved the problem and here it is repeating.

View attachment 83911
My apologies. I misread the post as "how do you know..."

Of course you don't know, which is why I showed you the relevant verse that aligns with what I said here.

Then why are you disagreeing with me? This is precisely what I wrote.
Did you read my post? Whether or not I agree is based on perspective. I gave you two scenarios, each from a different perspective.

The disagreement is happening in "the perspective of vyavaharika" is it not? Therefore it is "incorrect knowledge".
Correct. From the perspective of vyavaharika, which is incorrect knowledge, the statement is incorrect. Sort of like a double negative.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
My apologies. I misread the post as "how do you know..."

Why in the world would I ever type that? It makes no sense at all. You have been quoting scripture as if you have it memorized.

Of course you don't know, which is why I showed you the relevant verse that aligns with what I said here.

Please read what I wrote again. What I wrote is precisely what is contained in the scripture YOU brought. But I have not read them.

This means I DO KNOW, but there is a narrative playing in your head which is reversing this and arguing with me about it.

Screenshot_20231024_093019.jpg


Did you read my post? Whether or not I agree is based on perspective. I gave you two scenarios, each from a different perspective.

Yes. Defintiely, and I asked a question, which you did not *actually* answer. You brought hindu scripture which precisely agrees with what I wrote. The question remains unanswered:

Why disagree? The perspective of "transactional reality" is an appearance? Is it real or not? Can it it be trusted? Should it be favored?

You brought scripture which explicitly states that the disagreement you claim to have from your perspective is false. So, why are you disagreeing with me? Why are you favoring this "false knowledge"?

Correct. From the perspective of vyavaharika, which is incorrect knowledge, the statement is incorrect. Sort of like a double negative.

So, I ask again. And this shouldn't this be also applied to any and all perspectives about me? Any and all of them are occuring "from the perspective of vyavaharika"?

Why disagree? The perspective of "transactional reality" is an appearance? Is it real or not? Can it it be trusted? Should it be favored?

Why are the conclusions that are occuring in the "dream" being conflated as "the absolute truth"?

From the perspective of the enlightened, there was never anything to be enlightened to.

"There is no dissolution, no birth, none in bondage, none aspiring for wisdom, no seeker of liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth." ~ Guadapada's Mandukya Karika 2.32​

There is a solution. A simple moderate solution. :handpointdown:

a non-judgemental acceptance of the duality that is inherent in reality and simultaneous detachment from it

This ^^ is no different than the understanding of "transtheism" where we agreed. Although in this case, if "the perspective of vyavaharika" is favored and trusted ( and that is precisely what is happening right now, and what was happening in our private conversation ) then it is the opposite of this solution. It is:

An absolutely certain judgement of exclusion and firm attachment to it ( the judgement of exclusion ).

This ^^ is what happens when these teachings are applied in reverse. You said you didn't understand what that meant? Here it is spelled out. Per the hindu scripture which you brought, this is absolutley false knowledge. And this ^^ is the topic of the discussion, it goes directly back to the OP. I've been trying to discuss this, but no one is able to do it without "taking exception" or "taking offense".
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
It's easy to see if a person is not enlightened:

If they consider themself superior to others, then they are not enlightened.
If they aspire to be superior to others, then they are not enlightened.
If they are inspired by others who consider themself superior to others, then they are not enlightened.

If they claim to be a god, but obviously are not, then they are not enlightened.

You are ready to certify a person as enlightened or not as per your personal parameters. But would that be valid when you yourself have not attained enlightenment. It is like a blind man critically evaluating a painting, and giving opinions.



So. I was correct. And if I am correct here, then, it is the enlightened perspective NOT to revere the enlightened sage. It would not be proper to reduce them either. If all are one, then all would be considered equal.

The Self or Buddha nature is there in Buddha and serial killer Jack the Ripper and mass murderer Adolf Hitler. But would it be correct to say that all three should be considered equally with respect and reverence!



All are divine. The enlightened-sage is no different.

Divinity is there in all sentient beings. But those who have performed the austerity of getting rid of the impurities to reveal the Self or Buddha nature or 'Kingdom of God within', are the ones who attain enlightenment. And they are obviously worthy of more reverence and respect.

In sport itself, the winners are honored with medals and trophies and not the losers. All the athletes had the potential to be a winner, but it is the eventual winners who performed the austerity to be successful that are honored thus, not the losers.
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
Whatever conclusion is made about oneself, others, Brahman, enlightenment, etc. All of that is happening in the illusion, the dream, which @SalixIncendium wrote was only an appearance.

This "conqueror" and "conquering" is itself an illusion. The "conquest" is an illusion. "conquering himself" is an illusion. None of that is real IF, big if, it is true what @SalixIncendium wrote.

Maya is an illusion, but it requires intelligence, meditation, excellent critical thinking and application skills, self-inquiry to figure this out, as well as to get out of it. If it was an easy task, all would be enlightened by now, and the world would be in a golden age.

Truth is that the vast majority are slaves to the illusion and falsehood, and played upon almost endlessly. And psychological suffering is the price they have to pay as a penalty for lacking Self-knowledge.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You are ready to certify a person as enlightened or not as per your personal parameters.

No. That is not what I wrote. Please read it again.

I emphasized the word "not". It is easy to see when someone is not enlightened specifically those who are claiming they are "enlightened" when they are not. I am not certifying anyone as enlightened, although, as I wrote earlier, I think it is a lot more common than the non-enlightened aspirant would like to be believe. Exaggerating enlightenment into something it is not is highly rewarding for their ego. How much more so for the one who is proclaiming their own "enlightenment"

Screenshot_20231027_054324.jpg


You are ready to certify a person as enlightened or not as per your personal parameters.

They are not my personal standards. They match precisely what was posted from hindu scriptures. See below.

From the perspective of the enlightened, there was never anything to be enlightened to.

"There is no dissolution, no birth, none in bondage, none aspiring for wisdom, no seeker of liberation and none liberated. This is the absolute truth." ~ Guadapada's Mandukya Karika 2.32​

Please read this :handpointup:. Now it should be clear they are not my personal parameters.

But would that be valid when you yourself have not attained enlightenment. It is like a blind man critically evaluating a painting, and giving opinions.

My status is irrelevant to the truth value of what I have written. What I wrote precisely matches what was posted from hindu scripture. I am neither blind, deaf, or ... dumb. ;)

The Self or Buddha nature is there in Buddha and serial killer Jack the Ripper and mass murderer Adolf Hitler. But would it be correct to say that all three should be considered equally with respect and reverence!

Divinity is there in all sentient beings. But those who have performed the austerity of getting rid of the impurities to reveal the Self or Buddha nature or 'Kingdom of God within', are the ones who attain enlightenment. And they are obviously worthy of more reverence and respect.

In sport itself, the winners are honored with medals and trophies and not the losers. All the athletes had the potential to be a winner, but it is the eventual winners who performed the austerity to be successful that are honored thus, not the losers.

None are worthy of more reverence from the enlightened perspective. The desire to revere the "enlightened" is the ego, nothing more. The aspirant, themself, wants to be revered. The aspirant, themself, wants to be above the others. That's all it is.

Maya is an illusion, but it requires intelligence, meditation, excellent critical thinking and application skills, self-inquiry to figure this out, as well as to get out of it. If it was an easy task, all would be enlightened by now, and the world would be in a golden age.

Truth is that the vast majority are slaves to the illusion and falsehood, and played upon almost endlessly. And psychological suffering is the price they have to pay as a penalty for lacking Self-knowledge.

What you have written is coming from maya. All of the conclusions written are coming from maya. Realizing it doesn't require anything other than a pivot in perspective. It is easy. If it wasn't easy then I would not be able to do it.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
No. That is not what I wrote. Please read it again.
Y'know what, @dybmh, you really need to knock it off with the "Please read it again" and maybe look at how you might be able to communicate your thoughts more effectively.

If more than one person is "misunderstanding/misrepresenting" what you write, perhaps not it's not what is written, but how it's written.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Y'know what, @dybmh, you really need to knock it off with the "Please read it again" and maybe look at how you might be able to communicate your thoughts more effectively.

If more than one person is "misunderstanding/misrepresenting" what you write, perhaps not it's not what is written, but how it's written.

The words are there for anyone to see. I am not certifying anyone as enlightened. But it is easy to see when someone is NOT enlightened. I emphasized the word NOT in my reply.

I think there is an ego driven incentive for you to misread my words and you have done it repeatedly. Yes, this would mean that you are not operating from an enlightened state.

I think it would be very healthy to consider the likelihood of the truth in this in spite of whether or not it stings your ego.

perhaps not it's not what is written, but how it's written.

How it's written stings the ego. I would rather be clear than delicate.
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
No. That is not what I wrote. Please read it again.

I emphasized the word "not". It is easy to see when someone is not enlightened specifically those who are claiming they are "enlightened" when they are not. I am not certifying anyone as enlightened, although, as I wrote earlier, I think it is a lot more common than the non-enlightened aspirant would like to be believe. Exaggerating enlightenment into something it is not is highly rewarding for their ego. How much more so for the one who is proclaiming their own "enlightenment"

View attachment 84009



They are not my personal standards. They match precisely what was posted from hindu scriptures. See below.



Please read this :handpointup:. Now it should be clear they are not my personal parameters.



My status is irrelevant to the truth value of what I have written. What I wrote precisely matches what was posted from hindu scripture. I am neither blind, deaf, or ... dumb. ;)

What Gaudapada wrote is correct from a non-dualist philosophical perspective, but this is something that should be commented upon only by someone who is well-versed in advaita or nondual philosophy, and not by any tom, dick and harry who has a superficial knowledge of Hindu scriptures and start adapting it to all situations foolishly.

The Absolute (Paramarthika) and the relative ( vyavaharika) both should be taken into account at the same time.

None are worthy of more reverence from the enlightened perspective. The desire to revere the "enlightened" is the ego, nothing more.


Reverence for Divinity or the enlightened is bound to be there as long as the ego is present. But such reverence serves as a way to transcend the ego as well leading to enlightenment. Reverence or gratitude is a spiritual practice in itself leading to dissolution of karma.

Hence worship of Divinity or enlightened is prescribed in Hinduism, and hence on the day of Guru Purnima, the principle of Guru is set for special reverence.


The Guru can even be a dog or cat who teaches one to live wisely. Dattatreya was a sage who saw each component of nature as a Guru to learn wisdom from.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What Gaudapada wrote is correct from a non-dualist philosophical perspective

That's the topic, and therefore, I was correct with what I wrote.

The Absolute (Paramarthika) and the relative ( vyavaharika) both should be taken into account at the same time.

What a beautiful dualistic perspective. I agree, and that is precisely what I wrote.

they have transcended the attachment to duality, but they simulateneously acknowledge it.

You said both the absolute and the relative both should be taken into account simultaneously. That is acknlowledging the inherent dualism in reality. Ideally one would not be attached to either the absolute or the relative.

But this is almost never the case. The non-dual adherent ( literally: one who clings, is attached, bound ) continuously denies the inherent duality, while simultaneously affirming it with their judgements of their own superiority, or the superiority of their "world-view", or the superiority of their religion, or the superiority of their scripture, or teachers. They affirm the inherent duality by judging others as inferior, ignorant, impure, among other things.

Truth is that the vast majority are slaves to the illusion and falsehood,

What a magnificent ego. It is enormous. Thank you for displaying it. Making this sort of claim about others and lifting oneself up as superior is a great example of these principles being applied to produce the opposite of a non-dual perception.

Claiming the majority are slaves is about as dual as one can get.

Comments like this are strongly attached, clinging, and favoring, the "relative reallity".

this is something that should be commented upon only by someone who is well-versed in advaita or nondual philosophy, and not by any tom, dick and harry who has a superficial knowledge of Hindu scriptures and start adapting it to all situations foolishly.

These are simple concepts. There is no reason to exclude anyone from making comments unless one is setting up a caste system of ivory tower elites. Then the elite have a reason to protect their self-bestowed superior status.

The status of the individual has no bearing on the truth value of the statement.

The Guru can even be a dog or cat who teaches one to live wisely. Dattatreya was a sage who saw each component of nature as a Guru to learn wisdom from.

You just contradicted yourself. First you say that common folk should not comment, then you say that dogs and cats are gurus of they have something to teach.

The status of the individual has no bearing on the truth value of the statement.

It seems that it was true what I wrote:

None are worthy of more reverence from the enlightened perspective.

None are worthy of more reverence. A dog, a cat, a child, an unlearned beggar, the enlightened-sage, the imposter pretending to be enlightened, hitler, whomever, and whatever. They all should be equally revered. They all have something to teach. Hitler is a brillaint negative role-model. I hope and pray the world never forgets it.

worship of Divinity or enlightened is prescribed in Hinduism

This encourages, promotes, and propagates the illusion that one is superior than another. Naturally the aspirant loves this because they immagiine themself being worshipped someday. It is an attachment to the "relative", and it acknowledges the the inherent duality of reality. Whomever is being worshipped cannot be Brahman, because the one who is worshipping is exccluding themself from it.

If this is a practice perscribed in Hinduism then it is denying that any are Brahman, because the one who is worshipping is excluded from the one they are worshipping. This renders Brahman incomplete. It is an unavoidable contradiction of principles.

Worship or reverence of any "thing" denies that the thing being worshipped is Brahman.

such reverence serves as a way to transcend the ego as well leading to enlightenment.

It appears to do the opposite. It is propogating an attachment to "relative" reality and a dualistic world-view where some are superior and the majority are ignorant slaves.
 
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