YEC and Christianity

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

I do not claim godhood, nor do I wish for such a thing. My religion is that of an omnist, that I find wisdom in all things. I believe Jesus to be a Sage, but not divine in any way. Much of what he said is directly paralleled in the sayings of Buddha.

I try to "do unto others...", though yes, as I am only human, I sometimes do not succeed in this.

My point is that a mythology doesn't have to be believed as literal to follow the teachings of Jesus. You can be a Christian and not believe the mythology of the Old Testament to be literal truth. I know many.

I think we talk about two different things here.
Let me try it first with the "wisdom" trail...
I do not think that you need to believe in anything in order to follow wisdom apart of (obviously) believing that it is wisdom.
I do not see any non human made wisom in the bible. And i see wisdom in many books by many cultures and many men. I would not call myself a follower of this or that teaching as a whole though.

As for the religious trail.
Contrary to you (perhaps) i think that being a christian does not mean "choose some wise words of the bible and follow them, discarding the rest or reinterpreting it and ignoring the other books". For me a christian is someone who believes the claim of his religion to be divine and true. His religion manifests in the bible where these and other claims are made. Now if you pick some wise words in the bible and follow them because they are wise then you are for me no christian. If you take parts of the bible that suit you and leave others out or discard them, then you are for me no christian.
Of course people call themselves christian. Doesn't however make them so.
The interesting question is what it takes to be a christian ?
If you say that belief in some "abstract form" of Jesus is sufficient with no regard to what is said in the bible or other sources ... then this is a definition which i find to be rather weak.

 

[fantome profane]

My argument is simply that pick and choose is not true religion. Of course you can call yourself a christian. But for me (and i guess for most YECs as well) you simply are not one following the "true" path of christianity.

Then you must conclude that true religion simply does not exist. I have never seen or heard of anyone who did not to some degree pick and choose. The history of the Bible itself is a history of picking and choosing.

You follow your own path with no reasonable credibility that it matches the supposed "truth".
Pick and choose in the end almost equals "arbitrariness .

It is only arbitrary if she does not have reasons for her choices, I do not believe this is the case.

 

[Autodidact]

I didnt get the last part of your question..But I dont doubt a "non-religious" man could have given the same advice that is worth following..

I just don't know many that are willing to die for me in order so I could hear it..

Love

Dallas

Dallas: You're missing the essential question. On what do you base your opinion that Jesus died for you, if not the Bible? If the Bible, why do you think that's a credible source?

 

[DallasApple]

Dallas: You're missing the essential question. On what do you base your opinion that Jesus died for you, if not the Bible? If the Bible, why do you think that's a credible source?

Well obviously I started with the Bible..But I have also read up on the opinions of scholars..Not just Christian scholars ...And there is little dispute that he existed..So I beleive that ..as far as dying for my sins?..I will only say ..I take that on faith..and the recognition of the massive impact His life has indeed had on so many...And I mean the positives...And thats reliable enough for me..

Having said that..I dont expect that to be "reliable" enough for everyone..Its my personal belief..I dont try and push that on others..And you know me Auto..I am actually quite skeptical and I have MANY issues with some of the Biblical writings..

I do not believe we were supposed to stay stuck in a world that existed 2,000 years ago...But I believe Jesus was here..He came to show us how to act..And he was crucified for it..and that includes me that he died for..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

And also you know its very frustrating..On the one hand Im not a "true Christian" in the opinions of some (mainly other Christians)..because I "pick and choose"...On the other hand I feel like sometimes Im being mocked for beleving any of it..(not by you ..but I hear the remarks about unicorns and fairies and so on)...And Im challenged to "prove it" or explain myself..

Sometimes I feel like I dont belong anywhere...

Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

Well, Dallas, when you say that you "take that on faith," what you're essentially saying is that you believe it for no reason, without any evidence of even despite the evidence. So I don't think you should be surprised at being called to task for that.

I guess I don't mind too much if people want to build their world view on such a shaky basis, and at least you don't do as so many do here, and then use that as a further basis on which to tell others how to live their lives.

To us it's the equivalent of something around like: "Every morning I read the cards, and plan my day around what they tell me." We're like, "O.K..." (backing away slowly.) The only difference is that your evidence-free lifestyle is more popular.

But I'm glad that you recognize that's all it is.

 

[DallasApple]

I guess I don't mind too much if people want to build their world view on such a shaky basis, and at least you don't do as so many do here, and then use that as a further basis on which to tell others how to live their lives.

Well..Im very happy that "you dont mind" how I build MY world view..Thats very generous of you..Thanks..

Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

Well I sort of do, but it's really not my business. I organize my life and world-view based on evidence, to the best of my limited ability, and while I wish the rest of the world would do likewise, none of you are under my dominion, so there it is.

 

[DallasApple]

Well I sort of do, but it's really not my business. I organize my life and world-view based on evidence, to the best of my limited ability, and while I wish the rest of the world would do likewise, none of you are under my dominion, so there it is.

"None of you"?...

You seem to think somehow you are superior in this post.Anyway..Im sorry you "sort of mind"..I as well have no control over you and what you mind or dont in my life.

Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

Well, not me, but yes, I do think that evidence is the best basis on which to construct my model of reality. Do you disagree?

 

[DallasApple]

Well, not me, but yes, I do think that evidence is the best basis on which to construct my model of reality. Do you disagree?

Well there is evidence..Like I said enough for me..

But no I do not disagree with your model..Why would I..As long as you are happy with it...

Love

Dallas

 

[Autodidact]

I thought you said you just accept that rather important bit on faith?

 

[DallasApple]

I thought you said you just accept that rather important bit on faith?

Here is the important bit...Right now I am flashing you my boobs..and pinching your nose...

Love

Dallas

 

[Riverwolf]

I think we talk about two different things here.
Let me try it first with the "wisdom" trail...
I do not think that you need to believe in anything in order to follow wisdom apart of (obviously) believing that it is wisdom.
I do not see any non human made wisom in the bible. And i see wisdom in many books by many cultures and many men. I would not call myself a follower of this or that teaching as a whole though.

As for the religious trail.
Contrary to you (perhaps) i think that being a christian does not mean "choose some wise words of the bible and follow them, discarding the rest or reinterpreting it and ignoring the other books". For me a christian is someone who believes the claim of his religion to be divine and true. His religion manifests in the bible where these and other claims are made. Now if you pick some wise words in the bible and follow them because they are wise then you are for me no christian. If you take parts of the bible that suit you and leave others out or discard them, then you are for me no christian.
Of course people call themselves christian. Doesn't however make them so.
The interesting question is what it takes to be a christian ?
If you say that belief in some "abstract form" of Jesus is sufficient with no regard to what is said in the bible or other sources ... then this is a definition which i find to be rather weak.

You do understand that there are Christian denominations that follow completely different books in the Bible, or completely different Bibles altogether. Do you consider Gnostic Christians "true" Christian?

I just don't see the problem with personal editing, as long as the rest is not discarded without review.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Then you must conclude that true religion simply does not exist. I have never seen or heard of anyone who did not to some degree pick and choose. The history of the Bible itself is a history of picking and choosing.

In the end indeed this must be the conclusion for anyone who believes that the sources have been altered or are not acurate. In the end this is my point.

Thats why i state that only those who follow their sources directly and claim that their sources are original and all statements therein are valid and correct (especially literally) may claim that they are true followers of their original religion.
Of course they still might be simply wrong as the scripture is wrong ! But given the preconditions they at least might make the claim they follow the true teachings of the (potentially wrong) scripture.

It is only arbitrary if she does not have reasons for her choices, I do not believe this is the case.

I guess it depends on what arbitrary means. (i am no native english speaker).
I wanted to say that there is no conclusive reasoning for the choices.
Of course i could come up with "reasoning" why 6 days is not meant literally....
Something like: If the bible is correct, which christians believe and science too which some christians believe then there must be a different meaning to it ......
But that is not conclusive especially since it carries a lot of implications about God, the Bible and people.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

You do understand that there are Christian denominations that follow completely different books in the Bible, or completely different Bibles altogether. Do you consider Gnostic Christians "true" Christian?

The term "denomination" comes from denominatio meaning as much as "differentiating naming".
As you state above these people believe in different versions of the bible or interpret different parts differently. In common they only have the claim to be christians but even amongst themselves they often enough will tell you that the other groups are not following the true path.
Now you may repeat it as often as you like but you cant say that someone is christian just because he happens to be in a group that calls itself so.
Basically it is very simple. If God gave you a clear path then any deviation from it is a wrong one. One may argue what the clear path is but you may not argue that everybody who follows whatever he chooses follows it.

Now about the gnostic christian. Why do you think he calls himself "gnostic christian" ? Because obviously he differs from other christians.
If he is a true christian, then the others are not.

I just don't see the problem with personal editing, as long as the rest is not discarded without review.

Are you sure this is a reasonable way to deal with the question of what originally was revealed to be the path to paradise ?

A question about your statement above...
If I took a mathematics book and changed the rule about additions, leaving the other operations as they are (so i didnt discard any rest without review) .. would you not say that this constitutes a problem ?

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Well obviously I started with the Bible..But I have also read up on the opinions of scholars..Not just Christian scholars ...And there is little dispute that he existed..

So far I understand that you believe that a man existed.
Well i guess that is not really a problem. Many people existed and even if someone believed in a person that didn't ... would it really matter ?
I guess no.

It matters when suddenly factors come in that make this person more than a person and ones own actions dependend on him.

So I beleive that ..as far as dying for my sins?..I will only say ..I take that on faith..and the recognition of the massive impact His life has indeed had on so many...And I mean the positives...And thats reliable enough for me..

Here i understand that you have no further evidence. You rather choose to believe in some abstract person dying for your sins and you name several supposed positive impacts of the person or the belief in that person as reason for believing in him.
I would say a lot of people had positive impact on the world and nobody takes them as Gods son. The fact that some people did it with jesus and elevated his supposed statements to divine levels does not make it so.
The same statements that you make here could be made by a muslim about his prophet. I doubt you would take that as enough evidence to suddenly become muslim.
I would claim that you simply do not deal with such claims on a consistent basis.

Having said that..I dont expect that to be "reliable" enough for everyone..Its my personal belief..I dont try and push that on others..And you know me Auto..I am actually quite skeptical and I have MANY issues with some of the Biblical writings..

I wouldnt claim that you tries to push that onto me. You obviously didnt and i am grateful you dont.

I do not believe we were supposed to stay stuck in a world that existed 2,000 years ago...But I believe Jesus was here..He came to show us how to act..And he was crucified for it..and that includes me that he died for..

What i do not understand still ....
"What Jesus" do you believe in ?
I see no consistent rule in your belief.

And also you know its very frustrating..On the one hand Im not a "true Christian" in the opinions of some (mainly other Christians)..because I "pick and choose"...On the other hand I feel like sometimes Im being mocked for beleving any of it..(not by you ..but I hear the remarks about unicorns and fairies and so on)...And Im challenged to "prove it" or explain myself..

Sometimes I feel like I dont belong anywhere...

Love

Dallas

I do not know if that was adressed at me.
If it was ... well I neither have any desire to "mock" you nor am i in a position to tell you what you are or not.
I do state my opinion about certain things and I do certainly mock certain beliefs. However that has nothing to do with you.

 

[fantome profane]

Thats why i state that only those who follow their sources directly and claim that their sources are original and all statements therein are valid and correct (especially literally) may claim that they are true followers of their original religion.

But do such people actually exist? I have never encountered such a person and I doubt that it is theoretically possible.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

But do such people actually exist?

People that claim to be so ? Sure .... MiddleTownBibleChurch (YEC btw) for example when it comes to christians or zahirites when it comes to muslims.

I have never encountered such a person and I doubt that it is theoretically possible.

I think thats difficult to answer to.
Theoretically many things are possible including a strict adherence to the literal text disregarding anything but it. After all if people archieve it to believe in an earth of an age that is not even a second in context to what science says the age is ... then why should they not widen that thinking to other aspects of their belief ?

 

[Riverwolf]

The term "denomination" comes from denominatio meaning as much as "differentiating naming".
As you state above these people believe in different versions of the bible or interpret different parts differently. In common they only have the claim to be christians but even amongst themselves they often enough will tell you that the other groups are not following the true path.
Now you may repeat it as often as you like but you cant say that someone is christian just because he happens to be in a group that calls itself so.
Basically it is very simple. If God gave you a clear path then any deviation from it is a wrong one. One may argue what the clear path is but you may not argue that everybody who follows whatever he chooses follows it.

Now about the gnostic christian. Why do you think he calls himself "gnostic christian" ? Because obviously he differs from other christians.
If he is a true christian, then the others are not.

I don't believe anymore that there is even such a thing as "true Christianity".

Are you sure this is a reasonable way to deal with the question of what originally was revealed to be the path to paradise ?

A question about your statement above...
If I took a mathematics book and changed the rule about additions, leaving the other operations as they are (so i didnt discard any rest without review) .. would you not say that this constitutes a problem ?

Mathematics is very different from religion. You can't change the fact that 2+2=4. Leaving aspects of mathematics out of a math book does constitute a problem.

But we're not talking about math here. We're talking about religion.

When I say leaving things out, I am quite serious when I say it should be done with extensive review and critical analyzing. I don't think it's okay to leave something out just after a first reading and an initial disagreement. We have brains.