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Yes, but how did it all get started in the first place?

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
So let me get this right Tiapan, in your theory you just want people to imagine photons (electromagnetic energy) just miraculously popped into being. Another immaculate conception theory.

Not sure what you mean exactly? Are you referring to the initial gamma burst from the matter-antimatter annihilation, or the apparent transgression of energy to matter via E=mc^2 or rather m= E/(c^2)=hv/(c^2)

Please clarify, happy to explain in greater detail, I have only summarized here to make a couple of points.

Cheers
 
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footprints

Well-Known Member
Not sure what you mean? Are you referring to the initial gamma burst from the matter-antimatter annihilation, or the apparent transgression of energy to matter via E=mc^2?

Please clarify

Cheers

Doesn't matter, either which way, you cannot have a gamma burst from the matter-antimatter annihilation, without first having something to annihilate where did the positron or antiproton come from.
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Doesn't matter, either which way, you cannot have a gamma burst from the matter-antimatter annihilation, without first having something to annihilate where did the positron or antiproton come from.

from the prior "hot quark soup" which cools enough to form matter and antimatter.

Cheers
 

Xander

Member
I am sure this energy could be described as *omnipresent* for those who use this label Tiapan?

How do you feel about this?
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I am sure this energy could be described as *omnipresent* for those who use this label Tiapan?

How do you feel about this?

At those temperature I could imagine a large quatity of very hot simple unintelligent particles in a rather small space. So omnipresent maybe, unless there is an outside, a something that this quantal bubble expands into, then it would not be omnipresent.

Cheers
 

McBell

Unbound
I know what you mean about bull**** claims, I have just read some.

Now why would I have something which I have just said was impossible?

Better ask River about that Red Herring. And your Red Herring, is what generally happens when somebody jumps into the middle of the conversation and doesn't know what the conversation is about.
You made the claim that it is mathematically impossible.
So now you need to present the math.

If you cannot present the math, then your claim of mathematically impossible is nothing more than you pulling **** out your backside.

So instead of your feeble attempt at ad hominem, why don't you either present your math that shows this alleged impossibility or retract your blatantly bull **** claim?

You know, I have heard somewhere that God dislikes liars.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
It's not the best explanation. If it were people wouldn't have a problem with it. It just don't make no sense!:beach:
Are you familiar with any other scientific theory such as the theory of relativity or quantum theory? Do these theories “make sense”?

There is a lot in science that conflicts with our intuitive sense of the way thing should be. If you think evolution is strange then quantum physics is downright bounce your head off the wall insane. But the evidence dictates that they are both scientifically sound.
 

challupa

Well-Known Member
Well creationists always say something can't come from nothing so therefore god had to have made everything. Well then, who made god?
 

Xander

Member
At those temperature I could imagine a large quatity of very hot simple unintelligent particles in a rather small space. So omnipresent maybe, unless there is an outside, a something that this quantal bubble expands into, then it would not be omnipresent.

Cheers

Energy is energy regardless of temperature,only form changes as the same principal applies.I like Einstein although all of his work is tied to speed of light & relies upon this as being *instant* or fastest speed possible,which is flawed.

I love your label's & believe that you are accurate,the energy universe varies dramatically although the same principals exist in all area's.Expanding Quantal bubble label is SO cool!

*applauds*

For the ones having difficulty with the concept there is a link which illustrates the most recent effect's upon the 3rd rock from the sun.Due to photon's in the process described very well by you.Mars is explained too(spreading & subduction principal)

This describes the *visible* process which transcend's through dimension's to form a major part of Incorporeal Universe,the *Current*.

Eh,have to post some more before I can do the link.
 

Xander

Member
At those temperature I could imagine a large quatity of very hot simple unintelligent particles in a rather small space. So omnipresent maybe, unless there is an outside, a something that this quantal bubble expands into, then it would not be omnipresent.

Cheers

What if part of that energy outside our quantal bubble can be perceived,although obscurely,by those within.Indeed those withinthe bubble have the natural born sense's to live in the energy world outside of the sphere/bubble(be conscious).

Indeed some have labelled it very well.

:areyoucra
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
A lot of people say 'Hey, I know that evolution happens, cos look at fruit flies or viruses etc...'or 'look at the fossil record.' Never mind all that. How did it all get going in the first place? It is mathematically impossible. As that's the case, the case for evolution is pretty much closed isn't it?

If it's mathematically impossible for life to originate, then how come we have life?
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I am a little confused trying to relate your metaphors to the physical universe. Are you saying consciousness is some sort of energy like heat or light or gravity? If so I would disagree, but others may agree, as many see it metaphorically as an "Energy", but I don't think we can measure it in Joules.

There is quite a serious debate if in fact there is an outside. My opinion is there is and we can see other universes. I define a universe as that produced from a Big Bang Phenomena rather than "That which is all" So the distant super clusters we observe could well be distant sister universes.

However, if this is incorrect and all we observe is contained within OUR universe, which appears to be expanding into a void. Does the void exist. If a volume of space contains no matter, solid, liquid, gas or plasma, and doesn't contain electromagnetic, gravitational, dark or light energy. In other words it contains absolutely zilch, nothing, empty ie a total absolute vacuum. Then can this nothing be really regarded as "something"?

Cheers
 
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Xander

Member
Simlar to Euclides parallel postulate,if VOID did not exist then we have to invent the vast untapped reservoir of the great unmanifest.

We only notice it when bose einstein condensate become's noticeable,until then we cannot perceive it unless with our own energy bodies.

Supercluster's depend's upon your allignment,I like your views & can see where you are coming from,although would state clearly that Supercluster's allign to form one universe again.The seemingly fractual existence of superclusters is iilusion only useful to elucidate that there is one universe.

Void is Immanence *religious label),has many scientific.

Done my 15,here is the cool link.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=25787051
 
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Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
From Wikipedia
The Euclid parallel postulate

If a line segment intersects two straight lines forming two interior angles on the same side that sum to less than two right angles, then the two lines, if extended indefinitely, meet on that side on which the angles sum to less than two right angles.

In a newtonian world,
given infinite distance, this holds as we either have parallel lines the sum of the internal angles = exactly 180 degrees, or a triangle with vertex on the side with the lowest sum of internal angles. Now Special relativity says we have curved space time geometry. This space time curve can be open, flat or closed. If it is open then we just keep expanding, diluted into a future of the cryogenic deep freeze.

If it is flat it is static much like our parallel lines, the universe expands assymtopically approaching a limit it never quite reaches, but future cold and dead universe again.

If it is closed then we expand slow down and contract again, possibly repeating the same process over and over. I believe we have a closed universe, Einstein's second view was that the universe is closed rather than static view, The Hartle and Hawking No-Boundary Proposal propose a closed universe. See http://web.uvic.ca/~jtwong/Hartle-Hawking.htm

hawkwave.gif


As pointed out recent observations would indicate to the contrary that the universe is open. In fact some evidence shows the expansion is accelerating, rather than slowing. This means the present observed mass of the universe is insufficient to provide the gravity needed to slow and cause the eventual collapse. This has led many to look for the missing mass. Dark matter/energy. observing a variety of galaxies has indicated that their rates of rotation about their galactic centers can only be accounted for if dark matter exists. Because we can see the effects of this "invisible" matters mass on visible stars and galaxies orbiting their respective centers of rotation. this missing matter can be inferred. Because it appears it is non-Baryonic in nature, normal methods of direct observation fail. It could be like neutrinos, or leptons such as muons and electrons. It could even be the light in my gamma photosphere where if we consider Energy and matter eg matter is a standing wave of energy, then the energy at present gamma radiation will have a high mass equivalent. Even though most regard photons as massless, the fact that gravity affects them and that they can be drawn permanently into a black hole, suggests a minuscule "mass" may be present.

In a closed universe this mass equivalent must be a part of the total. If it is great enough then perhaps it along with galactic dark matter/energy will be the mass necessary.

My own interpretation of the evidence suggests local dark matter/energy to explain what we observe in observed visible galaxies. Second, that the gamma photosphere from the initial expansion phase can be considered mass through E=mc^2 equivalence.


Thirdly my interpretation of current obsevations that the universe has a rotational velocity. This would indicate a substantial angular momentum. Since Angular Moment is concerved a fundemental physical law, this would indicate the protouniverse was spinning . Given the huge inertia of the universe in the small volume of the space it occupied at the time of the "Big Bang", then it must have been spinning very fast at or less than the speed of light. Where did this angular momentum come from. One explanation that obeys the natural laws of physics could be the legacy of a previous spinning object for example a prior collapsing universe after the Big Crunch, implying a closed oscillating universe. No beginning or end.

I believe I am the first to postulate that this residual angular moment, is evidence of a massive pre-big bang object and another argument for a closed universe. Not many others have offered evidence of anything before 10^37 seconds after the big bang. At least I have offered something to measure and ponder.

File:GalacticRotation2.svg
300px-GalacticRotation2.svg.png

Rotation curve of a typical spiral galaxy: predicted (A) and observed (B). Dark matter can explain the velocity curve having a 'flat' appearance out to a large radius

For interested parties, a reasonable intro to dark matter see Wikipedia
Dark matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Current view of cosmology

060915_CMB_Timeline75.jpg

This graphics is from WMAP's site. They seem to be pretty sure about universe starting with quantum fluctuation.

Now if I chill liquid Helium to almost 0K I get a Bose-Einstein condensate, that has quantal properties on a macro scale. The large hadron collider (LHC) is attempting to make very large subatomic particles, that may have been present during the Big Bang Expansion phase. If we have an analogous situation a quantal progenitor of the big bang it would make more sense than a singularity commonly envisaged. This is because a quantal singularity could not exist as a single defined point. Quantum physics says we cannot determine both position and speed at the same time as they are probability curves of standing waves. However we could have a quantum fluid a finite volume behaving similar to liquid helium.

Next point that I find contradicts an intelligence behind the big bang. As a singularity or quantum fluid the big bang proto-blob is very simple It has no information it is homogeneous it has no structure it is a single simple entity. It is the starting point for entropy to go in only one direction, ie entropy can only increase from here.

An unknown event occurs causing proto-blob to expand and cool then we get increased chaos entropy and complexity. Then after 13.7 BY we get something as complex as our selves that is just gaining the knowledge of the universe enough to allow us to manipulate our environment and ourselves. So I don't think we are any where near advanced enough to have the omni-knowledge yet, a product of entropy and complexity to actually derive a god type creature, maybe in another 13 BY perhaps.

Void is Immanence *religious label),has many scientific?
Immanence=nothing?

Planet is getting Bigger Video by Zero Point John - MySpace Video

An interesting theory, cute and a little simplistic, but it seems to misinterpret much of the geological evidence, such as diamond formation. The graphic was well done, however if the earth was half the diameter 65 million years ago would we not see some evidence of matter density change. If we halve the diameter we reduce the volume by a factor of 8, this means the same mass in smaller volume density is 8 time greater. This does not compute. But cute video anyway.

Cheers
 
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challupa

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say Tiapan, that I have been reading your posts with fascination. I definitely don't understand all of it, but what I do understand is really interesting. Thank you.
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Just wanted to say Tiapan, that I have been reading your posts with fascination. I definitely don't understand all of it, but what I do understand is really interesting. Thank you.

Thank you

These nuances tend to take up to much of my time, but I find them profoundly interesting. I don't like myths without knowing whats behind them, so I am always asking, why is it so?

As Ovid said
If it was error, its causes were honorable
Si fuit errandum, causas habet error honestas
Ovid, Heroides, Epis vii, 1.109

Cheers
 

Xander

Member
*They seem to be pretty sure about universe starting with quantum fluctuation*

Of course,& you expand very well upon the principles.

In your term's,not only are we surrounded by a whole load of external *nothing*,deep within the essence at the heart of the very core of every atom in the universe(the Bell shape)is the exact same nothing.aka VOID,the vast untapped reservoir of the great unmanifest.

It is dark just not imperceivable.Light and dark are simply for contrast,dark being infinitely greater,faster,powerful,just not recognised (yet).

How are you upon the immoveable immoveable(aka cause of all causes),or do you not recognise this (yet)?

If we are expanding,then somewhere else is shrinking.
If a black hole(time/gravity sphincter) is expanding,somewhere else is expanding exponentially too.

From great simplicity does the seemingly vastly complex ramify exponentially.

gtg work cheers
 
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