YHWH worship and Left Hand Paths

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Well, I for one would like to hear how you can combine a RHP tradition with a LHP tradition?

You wouldn't understand.

 

[EtuMalku]

You wouldn't understand.

Oh come now ol' chap . . . is there really something you have an inkling about that I already don't know all about?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The ****? No, it isn't.

The idea of being totally submissive to your god, or basically a muslim by the full definition of the word, is not LHP. You don't live your life according to your standards and desires, but live it within the boundaries and confines of what Jehovah desires.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Oh come now ol' chap . . . is there really something you have an inkling about that I already don't know all about?

Yes yes I'm sure you know everything. So full of info there is no space left.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The idea of being totally submissive to your god, or basically a muslim by the full definition of the word, is not LHP. You don't live your life according to your standards and desires, but live it within the boundaries and confines of what Jehovah desires.

I see what you mean, but that's not the only sort of relationship that one may have with a given deity. A deity may be seen as an archetype, a natural force or power, a mentor/guide, ideal, a father or mother figure (and not necessarily a domineering type), a trickster type, a friend, a lover, etc. There's a huge amount of ways that one may relate to a deity besides a master/slave relationship.

 

[Aštra’el]

The entire concept of worshiping a deity is counter to the LHP.

What exactly do you think you mean by "worship", and why would it go against LHP?

The concept of worshipping a deity does not go against all left hand paths. Especially when you understand that worship means "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration towards a deity", or "to honor with religious rites".

The LHP path isn't about serving a god and growing according to a deity's plan, but serving yourself and growing yourself according to your visions.

You are obviously confusing the concept of "worship" with concepts of subservience and servitude.

Jehova also requires many rules and policies to be followed - to worship Jehovah is to carry out his will and not your own. It is also from Christianity that many Western taboos are based; sexual regulations, dietary restrictions, homosexuality, gender repression, and having faith.

How would you know what YHWH "requires"? I am not talking about worshipping through Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. Those great religions are not the only paths of YHWH worship.

Worshiping YHWH does not mean you cannot fulfill your own Will. Worshipping YHWH does not mean you have to become a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, or that you must do what their religious leaders tell you to do. Worshipping YHWH means feeling or expressing reverence and adoration towards YHWH, or honoring YHWH with religious rites... all of which can be done in your own way, on your own path, and in accordance with your own Will.

That way, that path... it can certainly be LHP.

 

[EtuMalku]

I see what you mean, but that's not the only sort of relationship that one may have with a given deity. A deity may be seen as an archetype, a natural force or power, a mentor/guide, ideal, a father or mother figure (and not necessarily a domineering type), a trickster type, a friend, a lover, etc. There's a huge amount of ways that one may relate to a deity besides a master/slave relationship.

If it's seen as an archetype then it is not seen as a deity.
As a natural force or power . . . then it is part of the objective universe and exactly what the WLHP opposes
Mentors / guides are other human beings or better yet one's Self
Mom & Dad --> Humans
Trickster? Got me there . . .
Friends / Lovers . . . all Humans (well for most normal people)

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's 'RHP' religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe.

The way in which this is achieved is through what the Western LHP recognizes as White Magick, which is a deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

This is not the stance one takes on the Western LHP, the objective universe is seen as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the western left hand path goals of individuation and autotheism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If it's seen as an archetype then it is not seen as a deity.
As a natural force or power . . . then it is part of the objective universe and exactly what the WLHP opposes
Mentors / guides are other human beings or better yet one's Self
Mom & Dad --> Humans
Trickster? Got me there . . .
Friends / Lovers . . . all Humans (well for most normal people)

Perennial philosophy is the understanding that all the world's 'RHP' religions share a single, universal doctrine. This doctrine posits that the highest good that human life can achieve is through the union with a Supreme Being / Energy of the Universe.

The way in which this is achieved is through what the Western LHP recognizes as White Magick, which is a deception of one's conscious awareness into believing that one has been accepted by this Supreme Being / Energy otherwise known as the objective universe.

This is not the stance one takes on the Western LHP, the objective universe is seen as it plainly is, a non-conscious, unintelligent memetic mechanism composed of Time, Space & Matter. To absolve one's self into this is antithetic to the western left hand path goals of individuation and autotheism.

What was the point of this? I don't care about how you personally view it, as that only speaks to your own understanding of it. That doesn't mean anything to me, since I have my own views on it. I already know what you think about it, so you don't need to repeat yourself to me.

 

[EtuMalku]

What was the point of this? I don't care about how you personally view it, as that only speaks to your own understanding of it. That doesn't mean anything to me, since I have my own views on it. I already know what you think about it, so you don't need to repeat yourself to me.

That's odd . . . I could have sworn we were in a Debate Forum . . . you know, where you say something and if I disagree with it I rebut it

Oops . . . I guess we aren't

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's odd . . . I could have sworn we were in a Debate Forum . . . you know, where you say something and if I disagree with it I rebut it

No, this isn't a debate forum. This is a DIR. If you want to go on preaching, start a thread in the Same Faith Debates forum. I don't care to waste my time on it again. I just don't care about you think about it. What I consider myself - and I consider myself Left-Hand Path on a very fundamental level - is all that matters to me. I am not a member of any order. I am solitary and independent. So there's no dogma or rules about anything I have to adhere to. I'm not a part of your order, so how you define things doesn't mean much to me.

 

[EtuMalku]

This DIR really needs to get it's poop together . . .

 

[crossfire]

This DIR really needs to get it's poop together . . .

Agreed.

 

[Aštra’el]

The nature of this topic does seem to encourage debate. I will see about having this thread moved to Same Faith Debates.

 

[ThirtyThree]

It's not my fault these people are clueless about the LHP.
I'm not 're-labeling' Luciferianism, I'm trying to define it . . . so, that it doesn't turn into another Satanism which has come to mean anything you need it to be.

You're just bent because I confronted you about your Luciferian association . . . let's not play dumb.

Etu, I agree that Luciferianism does not need to be twisted into another "Satanism". Let me see... We have Theistic, Traditional, Philosophical, Anticosmic, Atheistic, Spiritual and that strange version where people paint "666" all over, sacrifice black cats, and that strange "other" category which no one really desires to discuss. (See my Photoshop of "Satanisms")

However, Luciferianism already has various flavors, to be fair. Theistic, Atheistic, Philosophical, "Enkian", Gnostic, Albert Pikes Version, and honestly I have no idea what else, nor do I desire to know for that matter. In other words, I doubt either of us is going to win a fight against the production of more denominations. We just have to pick a color, give it a name and go with it? Like my version of Luciferianism is Theistic, yet has elements of Satanism, Gnosticism (not the type where Lucifer is Yeshua either) and so on. However, I do not count myself as the authority on Luciferianism. Likewise, I also do not apply "LHP" to my flavor of Luciferianism. Perhaps it is because "LHP" is generally associated (at least Western LHP) with self deification, and my branch of Luciferianism does not deal into that type of thing. I just prefer to stay away from the label "LHP" in general, honestly. There are just too many versions of it, and everyone wants a piece of that gooey brown pie made of who knows what.

 

[Liu]

How would you know what YHWH "requires"? I am not talking about worshipping through Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc. Those great religions are not the only paths of YHWH worship.

Since I also mentioned YHWH "requiring" a certain kind of worship in my comment I'll reply to this.

No matter whether you consider YHWH to be an existing entity or a concept, there are certain demands he makes of his followers in his holy scriptures. So if you are venerating him you better also should approve of the fact that he makes such demands as it's quite a major part of his character. So it seems quite disrespectful to nevertheless worship him in a LHP-manner. I'm not saying you can't do it, but it might be deemed unhealthy to love a deity while, in your very expression of that love, you break with the foundations of the essence of that deity. It might be the "right" thing to do for your self-development, though, I don't know.

It reminds me of those Sufi mystics and theistic Luciferians who swoon about Lucifer's/Iblis's love to God, which is the more tragic since (as described in some Islamic myths) he was cast out from heaven for his loyalty (refusing to bow to Adam since he was ordered earlier that he should never bow or something similar). If you take that myth as inspiration it's indeed a very satanic thing to venerate YHWH while being a LHPer.

 

[LuisDantas]

** Thread moved to Same Faith Debates as requested by the thread creator **

 

[EtuMalku]

Etu, I agree that Luciferianism does not need to be twisted into another "Satanism". Let me see... We have Theistic, Traditional, Philosophical, Anticosmic, Atheistic, Spiritual and that strange version where people paint "666" all over, sacrifice black cats, and that strange "other" category which no one really desires to discuss. (See my Photoshop of "Satanisms")

However, Luciferianism already has various flavors, to be fair. Theistic, Atheistic, Philosophical, "Enkian", Gnostic, Albert Pikes Version, and honestly I have no idea what else, nor do I desire to know for that matter. In other words, I doubt either of us is going to win a fight against the production of more denominations. We just have to pick a color, give it a name and go with it? Like my version of Luciferianism is Theistic, yet has elements of Satanism, Gnosticism (not the type where Lucifer is Yeshua either) and so on. However, I do not count myself as the authority on Luciferianism. Likewise, I also do not apply "LHP" to my flavor of Luciferianism. Perhaps it is because "LHP" is generally associated (at least Western LHP) with self deification, and my branch of Luciferianism does not deal into that type of thing. I just prefer to stay away from the label "LHP" in general, honestly. There are just too many versions of it, and everyone wants a piece of that gooey brown pie made of who knows what.

Well I can't disagree with you there . . . it would be nice to have some form of semblance to everything however.

 

[EtuMalku]

** Thread moved to Same Faith Debates as requested by the thread creator **

YES!!! Gloves are OFF now!!!!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Since I also mentioned YHWH "requiring" a certain kind of worship in my comment I'll reply to this.

No matter whether you consider YHWH to be an existing entity or a concept, there are certain demands he makes of his followers in his holy scriptures. So if you are venerating him you better also should approve of the fact that he makes such demands as it's quite a major part of his character. So it seems quite disrespectful to nevertheless worship him in a LHP-manner. I'm not saying you can't do it, but it might be deemed unhealthy to love a deity while, in your very expression of that love, you break with the foundations of the essence of that deity. It might be the "right" thing to do for your self-development, though, I don't know.

It reminds me of those Sufi mystics and theistic Luciferians who swoon about Lucifer's/Iblis's love to God, which is the more tragic since (as described in some Islamic myths) he was cast out from heaven for his loyalty (refusing to bow to Adam since he was ordered earlier that he should never bow or something similar). If you take that myth as inspiration it's indeed a very satanic thing to venerate YHWH while being a LHPer.

To be fair, GA seems to be worshipping YHWH in the context of pre-Abrahamic Near Eastern polytheism, before YHWH was elevated to the status of the "one god" by the Jews, centuries later. Originally YHWH was a Canaanite (or Edomite?) war and storm deity in a polytheistic system. So the strictures of the Jews and such wouldn't necessarily apply, since those are the result of centuries of enforced reform and redactions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You are obviously confusing the concept of "worship" with concepts of subservience and servitude.

That's pretty much what being a muslim is. It is literally defined as being submissive to god. And some Muslims (adherents of Islam) due use terms such as servitude to describe their relation towards god. To follow Jehovah means following his ways; extreme and unobtainable expectations of abstinence, pages and pages of rules and restrictions, and it's very much "my way or the highway."

How would you know what YHWH "requires"?

Through the few books that allegedly came from his prophets and possibly son. Seems a good starting place to me.