YHWH: Worship ONE GOD, not MANY GODS. Worship Me, alone!

[Soapy]

What a terrible distortion of scripture!

It is only a distortion if you subscribe to a trinitarian mindset.

• ...”The difference in interpretation between Jewish and Christian sources pivots on the translation of the Hebrew word אדני (Adonai) in verse 1. This is usually translated as "my master" or "my lord", thus rendering the verse as "The Lord spoke to my master". While Adonai is one of the names of God, throughout the Tanakh it refers to a human "master" or "lord".[11] Since David wrote this psalm in the third person, to be sung by the Levites in the Temple in Jerusalem, the Levites would be saying that "the Lord spoke to my master"—i.e. to David.[11] (Psalm 110 - Wikipedia)

And I wrote the same thing BEFORE I saw this extract in the link.

Look again at Matthew 22:43-45. 'He [Jesus] saith unto them [the Pharisees] , How then doth David in spirit call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord]
The LORD ['Jehovah' - see Psalm 110:1] said unto my Lord [Adonai - my Lord], Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?'
If David then call him Lord [Adonai - my Lord], how is he his son? [How can the Messiah, Jesus Christ, be the son of David (verse 42) if the Messiah is David's 'Lord'?]

Was David not under immense pressure as king over Israel, fighting the Philistines, fighting Saul, fighting to remain faithful with the enormous trials of adhering to what GOD was directing him to do?

And God said to him, similar to: “David, worry not. Sit at my right hand until I turn your enemies into a footstool!”... This then prophesies for the coming Messiah WHEN Jesus is handed power and authority BY GOD to rule UNTIL all things (his enemies, political society, sin, unrighteousness, demon angels, unbelieving mankind...) are brought UNDER HIS FEET (as footstools). Whence, Jesus HANDS BACK the reconciled kingdom, and the power and authority HANDED to him BY GOD, BACK TO GOD.

So, Jesus is saying to the Pharisees that David had a Lord, and that the Lord had a LORD. The Lord is the Son of God, the one true mediator, the Messiah, and the LORD is his Father. This is evidence that the SON came from God the FATHER, just as trinitarians claim.

NO!! David had ONLY ONE GOD.... At the time that David wrote the poem he DID NOT HAVE a ‘Lord’. If you think so, then find me a verse concerning King David showing he had a ‘Lord’. And I don’t mean where it may say, ‘Lord God’, because that is just a higher glorification of ‘God’ (‘Master God’, if you like!)

YOUR claim, that Jesus was a MAN but NOT GOD is proved wrong in this passage of scripture.

Absolutely not. It does, in fact, prove against your trinity ideology because ‘GOD is not a Man’ (Are you going to deny that?)

 

[Redemptionsong]

NO!! David had ONLY ONE GOD.... At the time that David wrote the poem he DID NOT HAVE a ‘Lord’. If you think so, then find me a verse concerning King David showing he had a ‘Lord’. And I don’t mean where it may say, ‘Lord God’, because that is just a higher glorification of ‘God’ (‘Master God’, if you like!)

It is true, David does only have one God. Believing the Messiah to be the 'countenance' or 'strength' of God does not make the Messiah a second God, it demonstrates that the Father is able to dwell amongst us, through his Son. In other words, the full measure of the Spirit of God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

The problem with the interpretation that you give of Psalm 110, which is the one generally adopted by Jews who do not accept Jesus as Messiah, is that Jesus himself refutes it! What Jesus says in Matthew 22 makes it clear that he believed that 'my Lord' refers to HIMSELF. Are you, therefore, claiming that Jesus was wrong?

To say that David did not have a 'Lord' is also inaccurate. In the Spirit, David knew that he had a Lord, just as Moses knew that it was Christ that led them in the wilderness. How else could Paul have said that Christ was the Rock? [See 1 Corinthians 10:4]

 

[Brian2]

[I imagine Stephen had not had time to consider whom it might be in the bush. God's voice came from the bush and it said that the place was holy ground,,,,,,,,,,not because a created angel was there.]
Your kidding me, right?.....

No, Stephen was a Jew and the Jews saw it as just an angel and so Stephen would have. That is what Exodus says after all. Many Christians say it was Jesus and many do not. I do because it says God spoke from the bush and said it was a holy place. The Jews no doubt would not consider that God sent God to be His messenger,,,,,,,,,,,there was no reason to consider that and it would contradict held doctrines.
There are a number of times in the scriptures where the description of the angel who comes does identify that angel as God.

[Ex 24:10and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.

I also wonder whom it was that the elders of Israel saw at this incident.]

You can see God through an angel. Just like on how Jesus said if you've seen me, you have seen my father. Verse 10 says that they saw the Elohim of Israel, in the org language. Again.... angels represent Yahweh. They can speak for him as if he was speaking.

So your version is saying that God comes down from Heaven? Not sure what your really saying here......

Jesus of course is the Messenger of the Covenant who comes to His temple.
Mal 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
This suggests that the messenger of the covenant is God, along with the scriptures that suggest that other angels are God.
When God appeared to the Hebrew elders (Ex 24:10) it no doubt is just another case of the angel who speaks as if He is God and acts as if and when seen, the people say they have seen God. They call it an angel but they also believe they have seen God. Why could not God do that? Appear in a different form to His real form, one that people could see and they would not be harmed by?
For many Christians this could be Jesus who appeared, or even the Father.
Personally I do not know why a Jew would be reluctant to believe God could or would do such a thing, especially when the scriptures identify the angels as God.
You may have made up something about the angel that God can speak through them or even be seen in them or something, but that does not seem to agree with the scriptures as to who these angels really were.
But Jews would not want a teaching that allowed for God to be sent by God I guess.
Here is a site with some examples of scriptures in which an angel identifies or is identified as God.
Who Is the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament?

 

[Soapy]

The problem with this argument is that it overlooks the possibility that Jesus Christ was BOTH a man and God! And that is what the Messiah is on earth.

The hierarchy is simple. Man - Mediator (man and God) - God.

I’m glad you said ‘possibility’... The reality is that the Messiah is a HUMAN BEING.

Scriptures tells us that he is:

• Jesus: HOLY, BORN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD ... sinless and righteous.... Image of God.

JUST as:

• ADAM: BORN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD: Righteous, sinless, and Holy (Son of GOD: Luke 3:38) and IMAGE OF GOD.

So, since there is a direct parallel between Adam and Jesus, even to the point of scriptures calling jesus, ‘The LAST ADAM’, you would have to say that Adam was ‘God and Man’ ALSO... which is patently untrue!!!

By the way, ‘Last Adam’ means that no other HUMAN BEING would ever be DIRECTLY CREATED BY GOD.

((If Jesus HAD FAILED then no world would exist further.))

Moreover, Jesus was ENDOWED with the power of God, ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit TO DO GOOD:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)

Do not pounce on the ‘God was with him’ as any kind of notion that GOD BEING WITH SOMEONE MESNS THAT SOMEONE IS ALSO GOD!!

The scriptures is full of situations where a person was doing good, or conquered, or overcame difficulties because ‘God was with them’...

Are you going to say that Jesus was God because he sat down next to God? And that only God could sit next to God, even though God says,

• “Beside me there is no God - No, I know none!”

Are you going to say Jesus is God because GOD GAVE HIM HIS POWER and Authority to rule FOR A TIME? Well, I guess, Joseph was PHAROAH in Egypt then....

... and MORDECIAH was KING XERXES in Persia ...

... and MOSES was GOD over Pharoah!!

Goodness.... but I’m not expecting an answer from you on the as no other trinitarian has dared answer with validity, truth, or sense.

 

[Brian2]

It is only a distortion if you subscribe to a trinitarian mindset.

• ...”The difference in interpretation between Jewish and Christian sources pivots on the translation of the Hebrew word אדני (Adonai) in verse 1. This is usually translated as "my master" or "my lord", thus rendering the verse as "The Lord spoke to my master". While Adonai is one of the names of God, throughout the Tanakh it refers to a human "master" or "lord".[11] Since David wrote this psalm in the third person, to be sung by the Levites in the Temple in Jerusalem, the Levites would be saying that "the Lord spoke to my master"—i.e. to David.[11] (Psalm 110 - Wikipedia)

And I wrote the same thing BEFORE I saw this extract in the link.

Jesus did say however that David does call the Messiah Lord at that place. (Matt 22:44)

Absolutely not. It does, in fact, prove against your trinity ideology because ‘GOD is not a Man’ (Are you going to deny that?)

The scriptures say that God is not a man that he should lie (Number 23:19) That is a comparison of what God is like compared to what we are like, it does not say that God is not a man. Of course we know that God is not a man but that scripture does not say that. Do you say that it is impossible for God to become a man?
What do you say about when Thomas called to risen Jesus "My God"? (John 20:28)

 

[Redemptionsong]

I’m glad you said ‘possibility’... The reality is that the Messiah is a HUMAN BEING.

Scriptures tells us that he is:

• Jesus: HOLY, BORN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD ... sinless and righteous.... Image of God.

JUST as:

• ADAM: BORN BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD: Righteous, sinless, and Holy (Son of GOD: Luke 3:38) and IMAGE OF GOD.

So, since there is a direct parallel between Adam and Jesus, even to the point of scriptures calling jesus, ‘The LAST ADAM’, you would have to say that Adam was ‘God and Man’ ALSO... which is patently untrue!!!

By the way, ‘Last Adam’ means that no other HUMAN BEING would ever be DIRECTLY CREATED BY GOD.

((If Jesus HAD FAILED then no world would exist further.))

Moreover, Jesus was ENDOWED with the power of God, ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit TO DO GOOD:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)

Do not pounce on the ‘God was with him’ as any kind of notion that GOD BEING WITH SOMEONE MESNS THAT SOMEONE IS ALSO GOD!!

The scriptures is full of situations where a person was doing good, or conquered, or overcame difficulties because ‘God was with them’...

I will pounce on that exact statement!! God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to himself!

Well, once again, you have proved my case with your own words. How can a man go about 'DOING GOOD' if he does not have the Spirit of God without measure?

As we discussed in an earlier post, Jesus said 'only God is good'. Yet, you continue to claim that Jesus is not good!

 

[moorea944]

The Trinitarian position is that, as the Son of Man and Son of God, Jesus Christ is both fully man and fully God whilst dwelling on earth. The Unitarian position, held by those who deny the deity of Christ, is that Jesus was fully man but not fully God. This is the position both you and Soapy hold.

Scripture proves the position you hold to be false. This is because Jesus was both the Son of David and the Son of God. His genealogy proves this to be the case. Jesus' mother, Mary, was betrothed to Joseph, which allows for the royal line of descent; but the fact that Joseph was not Jesus' natural Father means that Jesus was, in reality, the Son of God.

When we read Matthew 22, we find that the Pharisees are calling the Messiah the 'son of David', and rightly so. But Jesus knows that the Messiah is BOTH the Son of man and the Son of God! So he proves his case by referring the Pharisees to Psalm 110:1, where David is shown to be calling the Messiah 'Lord' (Adonai).

Jesus came as the Suffering Servant, and received his anointing as king. He was not given his throne until after the ascension, in heaven. However, he is king NOW! He will also return as King of Kings.

A believer can only enter God's kingdom if that kingdom exists. Christ's dominion has begun, but has not, as yet, reached its completion.

[Scripture proves the position you hold to be false. This is because Jesus was both the Son of David and the Son of God.]
False? That's exactly what I believe in....
Scripture tells us that he is the son of man and the son of God. Both the son of David and the Son of God. Why would anyone want to believe in something different, I dont.... Just because he's the son of God, doesnt make him a God himself. He was made like us for a reason.....

[When we read Matthew 22, we find that the Pharisees are calling the Messiah the 'son of David', and rightly so. But Jesus knows that the Messiah is BOTH the Son of man and the Son of God! So he proves his case by referring the Pharisees to Psalm 110:1, where David is shown to be calling the Messiah 'Lord' (Adonai).]
Yes, that's correct, but that's a future prophecy. And David knew it. Jesus wasnt actually there.....

[A believer can only enter God's kingdom if that kingdom exists. Christ's dominion has begun, but has not, as yet, reached its completion.]
Christ's dominion has begun in what way?.....
Scripture tells us that Christ will "setup" a kingdom on earth when he comes back. That's where the kingdom will be. We dont go to him in heaven, he comes to earth for us. Scripture knows nothing about heaven going... There's no reason for that.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Scripture tells us that he is the son of man and the son of God. Both the son of David and the Son of God. Why would anyone want to believe in something different, I dont.... Just because he's the son of God, doesnt make him a God himself. He was made like us for a reason.....

No one denies that he was made like us, as a man. Who made him like us? Who filled him with the Holy Spirit?

The implications of not seeing God in Christ are very serious. If God is not IN Christ then you should not be following Christ, but YHWH only. That means by-passing Christ, and not following Him. If, on the other hand, you see God in Christ, there is every reason to follow Him.

Which is it to be?

 

[moorea944]

No one denies that he was made like us, as a man. Who made him like us? Who filled him with the Holy Spirit?

The implications of not seeing God in Christ are very serious. If God is not IN Christ then you should not be following Christ, but YHWH only. That means by-passing Christ, and not following Him. If, on the other hand, you see God in Christ, there is every reason to follow Him.

Which is it to be?

Not understanding your point with me. I do believe that God is in Christ. Scripture tells us that. And we do follow Christ yes... But, that doesnt make him God or a god...

 

[Soapy]

Jesus did say however that David does call the Messiah Lord at that place. (Matt 22:44)

Please read the verse properly. Jesus ASKED them a CONUNDRUM which they could not answer.

The scriptures say that God is not a man that he should lie (Number 23:19) That is a comparison of what God is like compared to what we are like, it does not say that God is not a man.

Amazing... you are trying to teach me that God is not a man yet also trying to say that Jesus, a man, is ALSO GOD?

• “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” (1 Tim 2:5)
• “The Jews there were amazed and asked, ‘How did this man get such learning without having been taught?’ Jesus answered, ‘My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.’” (John 7:5-6)
• “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:5-6)

What depth of double talk does trinity ideology go to.

Of course we know that God is not a man but that scripture does not say that. Do you say that it is impossible for God to become a man?

Now you are being silly. God is SPIRIT. He is the ultimate Being... there is no way God would lower himself into his own creation. This is why God created angels to do his works: He speaks - they do!

God created mankind to rule the creation ... and designated that one man of holy righteousness should be it’s king. It is ridiculous to say that God (Father, son, and Holy Spirit, as Trinitarians say) should designate one third of HIMSELF to rule what He ALREADY RULES OVER.

What do you say about when Thomas called to risen Jesus "My God"? (John 20:28)

Ha! Thomas... the doubter...!! You say he was calling Jesus ‘HIS GOD’... yes, ‘HIS GOD’.... So you are suggesting that Thomas SAW GOD in Jesus and deemed that Jesus WAS GOD?

Wow, so ONLY THOMAS, out of the ten other disciples, saw GOD... whereupon Jesus says:

• ‘Touch me, see that I am not a Spirit, for a Spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have’

Moreover the terribly disingenuous belief of Trinitarians that says that Jesus ‘BLESSED Thomas’.... NO NO NO!!! Jesus said:

• “Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

Jesus was BERATING Thomas for only believing because he had seen and touched the risen Jesus. The blessing is to those who ‘have not seen’ and will yet believe.

What is the imagination of the other ten disciples that (according to trinity) GOD has appeared in the body of Jesus and YET they just stood there doing NOTHING.... TWICE!!!

Oh, and what happened to Jesus’ own words:

• “No one has seen GOD at any time!!”???

 

[Soapy]

I will pounce on that exact statement!! God was IN CHRIST reconciling the world to himself!

Where are you quoting this from... Asking, not objecting...

Well, once again, you have proved my case with your own words. How can a man go about 'DOING GOOD' if he does not have the Spirit of God without measure?

There certainly is a huge delusional problem with trinitarians. When the HOLY SPIRIT is in a person then they are honored to DO GOOD. To do good in honesty, integrity, sinlessness, and righteousness. I showed you that GOD ANOINTED JESUS WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.... so what are you doing trying to destroy the truth and claiming something out of sorts??? Do you believe I do not see what you did there??

Further to that, Jesus told the Jews that the things he did were by means of the power of the Father... what he said to them was because the Father had taught him to say those things...

Really, what are you disputing?

As we discussed in an earlier post, Jesus said 'only God is good'. Yet, you continue to claim that Jesus is not good!

Ha ha ha... trinity double talk. Where did I say that... that would be ridiculous and only goes to show his desperate you are getting in this debate.

Jesus KNEW that the man calling him ‘Good teacher’ was trying to trick him... it was so obvious. Therefore JESUS SAID TO HIM:

• “There is none good but the Father”

These are JESUS’ words!!! Where did I say anything against that or even disputed with you about that???

And ‘Good’ is a RELATIVE word. In relation to GOD, no man can claim, or take complementary praise, to be ‘GOOD’. Jesus answered the man correctly.

In any case, how can anyone COMPARE God to a created Man!!? If Jesus had said, ‘You’re right, I am a good teacher!’, Jesus would have been glorifying HIMSELF in RELATIONSHIP to the Father who TAUGHT HIM WHAT TO SAY and DO... No one can be AS GOOD as the ULTIMATE TEACHER who taught him! Glorifying yourself by what someone greater than you has taught you is a completely sacrilegious.

 

[Soapy]

Not understanding your point with me. I do believe that God is in Christ. Scripture tells us that. And we do follow Christ yes... But, that doesnt make him God or a god...

Very true. The poster is trying to put wrongful concepts as if you said it. This smacks of desperation on their part. Both you and I have shown the truth from the scriptures and showed how they marry up perfectly and truthfully:

• ‘God was in Christ ...’ by God’s Holy Spirit.

That is, Jesus was ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit of God at Jesus’ baptism. Can they deny this? NO! So they try to say we said something we didn’t say!

If trinity is true... why do their followers deny the truth of the scriptures and, why do they not show VALID EVIDENCE of their ideology.

The simple answer is that they cannot. So inventions, alterations, misreadings, misinterpretations, and NO JOINED UP STORYLINE, is their way forward (actually, BACKWARDS).

God, who is Spirit, created a physical kingdom. God created a Being in his own image and designated one of such Being who was holier, and more righteous than all the other Beings in his image to rule over that physical kingdom.

It can hardly be true that God (whom trinity claim is THREE SPIRIT BEINGS as that ONE GOD to SPLIT OFF one part of (Him/It) self to rule over what (he/it) created WHEN by the very fact that (he/it) created the kingdom, is ALREADY and would eternally ever be the ruler of that physical kingdom.

And we see that GOD (whom we truth speakers call ‘The Father’) WILL eternally be ultimate ruler over BOTH his own kingdom, Heaven, and what he created, the earthly kingdom, BUT locally, the righteous Being in his image will rule over the earthly kingdom.

Any numbers of analogies show this. A son owning his own vineyard which is within his fathers GREATER vineyard. A son overseeing his own room in his Father’s house. A son holding the keys to one of the many cars in his fathers garage.

Now, it can hardly be said that Jesus (or God, if trinity is believed - and owns all that the ‘other two’ (!?)) own, gets to own what is already owned by him SEPARATELY from the other two.

Do you see (I know you do) that effectively Jesus-God is therefore NOT the same as Father-God, let alone anything like Holy Spirit-God?

Remember, trinity scriptures says that GOD MADE IT FOR THE SON OF GOD .... isn’t that weird?? Trinity says ‘The Son’ is the same (?) GOD; him/It self. But we know that ‘the Son’ is the physical human Being born BY THE OVERSHADOWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD to the virgin, Mary... the same one scriptures tells us about:

• “how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.”

Yet trinity ALSO says that it was made BY THE SON.

The mind boggles as to how trinity believers justify these anomalies to themselves: Fear, perhaps - fear of their church leaders, their friends, etc.?

And, of course, the trinity Jesus-God was variously a GOD that was SELF-DISEMPOWERED on earth in one moment and WHOLLY GOD in another but yet the very human creation could kill its own creator... doesn’t that seem like a poorly thought out drafted theme from a pagan melodrama? A TRUE GOD can be NOTHING BUT A TRUE GOD. And which TRUE GOD would decide that ‘BEING GOD WAS NOT WORTHWHILE’ as trinity says Phil 2 is supposed to say? (Sounds like Prince Harry of ‘Meghan and Harry’ infamousness wherein Harry wants to be both royal and not royal both at the same time... He’s just found out that it doesn’t work! When will trinity come to the same realisation??)

 

[moorea944]

Yeah, I never understood that trinity thing. But it's a mystery.... well... scripture tells us that the mystery has been revealed to us. So then why is it still a mystery?.... But in their eyes, if you dont believe in the trinity, your in a cult..... wow!!

 

[Brian2]

Yeah, I never understood that trinity thing. But it's a mystery.... well... scripture tells us that the mystery has been revealed to us. So then why is it still a mystery?.... But in their eyes, if you dont believe in the trinity, your in a cult..... wow!!

The revelation to us shows us that God has a Spirit who is God and a Son who is God and that the 3 are one God. It does not mean that we can fully understand how it works.
A Son has the same nature as His Father. The Spirit is in God and is alive. The Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father and the Father and Son come to dwell in us when we are given the Holy Spirit.
Whether that should mean that those who do not believe in the trinity are in a cult or not is another question. Imo it means that the teachings are wrong however and that teaching seems to lead to the necessity to understand other things in the Bible a different way also.
Where a cult starts is a hard question imo and is more than doctrine, it is to do with how the group is run also.

 

[Brian2]

God, who is Spirit, created a physical kingdom. God created a Being in his own image and designated one of such Being who was holier, and more righteous than all the other Beings in his image to rule over that physical kingdom.

Every single thing was created through the Son, this includes all the spirit realm also and means that the Son has not been created. Such an easy concept to understand.

Any numbers of analogies show this. A son owning his own vineyard which is within his fathers GREATER vineyard. A son overseeing his own room in his Father’s house. A son holding the keys to one of the many cars in his fathers garage.

Now, it can hardly be said that Jesus (or God, if trinity is believed - and owns all that the ‘other two’ (!?)) own, gets to own what is already owned by him SEPARATELY from the other two.

Analogies are good up to a point.

Do you see (I know you do) that effectively Jesus-God is therefore NOT the same as Father-God, let alone anything like Holy Spirit-God?

If you go by the scriptures you would know that the Son is the image of the invisible God and has the same glory. (Heb 1:3)

Remember, trinity scriptures says that GOD MADE IT FOR THE SON OF GOD .... isn’t that weird??

Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Trinity says ‘The Son’ is the same (?) GOD; him/It self. But we know that ‘the Son’ is the physical human Being born BY THE OVERSHADOWING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD to the virgin, Mary...

God sent His Son, the Son was the Son before being sent.

• “how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.”

Yes Jesus came to His own, the Jews, and they received Him not. They were His.

Yet trinity ALSO says that it was made BY THE SON.

The mind boggles as to how trinity believers justify these anomalies to themselves: Fear, perhaps - fear of their church leaders, their friends, etc.?

It's hard to follow what you mean. What anomolies?

And, of course, the trinity Jesus-God was variously a GOD that was SELF-DISEMPOWERED on earth in one moment and WHOLLY GOD in another but yet the very human creation could kill its own creator... doesn’t that seem like a poorly thought out drafted theme from a pagan melodrama? A TRUE GOD can be NOTHING BUT A TRUE GOD. And which TRUE GOD would decide that ‘BEING GOD WAS NOT WORTHWHILE’ as trinity says Phil 2 is supposed to say? (Sounds like Prince Harry of ‘Meghan and Harry’ infamousness wherein Harry wants to be both royal and not royal both at the same time... He’s just found out that it doesn’t work! When will trinity come to the same realisation??)

Phil 2 is about humility amongst equals. Jesus is the example given and would not be an example if He had not been equal to God.
Jesus kept His God nature even after taking on the nature of a servant, a nature He did not have before that. Jesus humbled Himself and lived in obedience as a man. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit for the work of His ministry for 3 years. He lived as the Father wanted Him to live, as a lowly obedient man.

 

[Brian2]

Please read the verse properly. Jesus ASKED them a CONUNDRUM which they could not answer.

Are you trying to say that at Matt 22:44 Jesus was not saying that David called the Messiah his Lord?
It certainly looks as if the Jews thought that David called the Messiah his Lord. If they did not think that they would have been able to tell Jesus that the Psalm was written for congregational singing and so the one who is speaking is the scribe who wrote the Psalm or even the ones who are singing and saying that the LORD said to David, their Lord.

Amazing... you are trying to teach me that God is not a man yet also trying to say that Jesus, a man, is ALSO GOD?

• “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” (1 Tim 2:5)
• “The Jews there were amazed and asked, ‘How did this man get such learning without having been taught?’ Jesus answered, ‘My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.’” (John 7:5-6)
• “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:5-6)

What depth of double talk does trinity ideology go to.

You don't seem to understand what Numbers 23:19 means and what I said about it. Basically it is saying God is not a liar like men are.
Yes Jesus is a man (and has God nature at the same time according to Phil 2) and Jesus, as a man, has a God, His Father and His Father became His God when He was in His mother's womb, when He became a man. (Psalm 22:10)
The Father is the one true God because Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not additional Gods but are of the one true God. Also the Father is the source of His Son and His Spirit, so the Father is the God and His Son and Spirit are in Him and they are one with Him. They were not created or made, they have just always been with Him.

Now you are being silly. God is SPIRIT. He is the ultimate Being... there is no way God would lower himself into his own creation. This is why God created angels to do his works: He speaks - they do!

Are you saying God is too proud to become a man or that He does not love us enough to do that?

God created mankind to rule the creation ... and designated that one man of holy righteousness should be it’s king. It is ridiculous to say that God (Father, son, and Holy Spirit, as Trinitarians say) should designate one third of HIMSELF to rule what He ALREADY RULES OVER.

God did not rule over the rebellious parts of His creation and the man Jesus restored the right order and at the same time allowed that a man still ruled over the creation.
Jesus is not one third of Himself. If Jesus rules God is ruling. In Jesus all the fullness of absolute deity dwells bodily (Col 2:9)

Ha! Thomas... the doubter...!! You say he was calling Jesus ‘HIS GOD’... yes, ‘HIS GOD’.... So you are suggesting that Thomas SAW GOD in Jesus and deemed that Jesus WAS GOD?

No, I am saying that Thomas called Jesus "my God" (something a Jew would not call anyone) and Jesus agreed with Him.

Wow, so ONLY THOMAS, out of the ten other disciples, saw GOD... whereupon Jesus says:

• ‘Touch me, see that I am not a Spirit, for a Spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have’

Do you need a written and signed declaration from all the disciples before you accept what one of them said?
You are conflating that gospel of John with that of Luke. Thomas would have made the declaration of Jesus being His God after Jesus had asked him to check out His wounds. Then Jesus agreed with what Thomas had declared.
Such a plain straight forward statement to the effect that Jesus is our God and you have to twist it to mean something else.

Moreover the terribly disingenuous belief of Trinitarians that says that Jesus ‘BLESSED Thomas’.... NO NO NO!!! Jesus said:

• “Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)

Jesus was BERATING Thomas for only believing because he had seen and touched the risen Jesus. The blessing is to those who ‘have not seen’ and will yet believe.

Of course Jesus is giving a subtle put down BUT Jesus is also saying
Blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe I am their Lord and God.

What is the imagination of the other ten disciples that (according to trinity) GOD has appeared in the body of Jesus and YET they just stood there doing NOTHING.... TWICE!!!

Oh, and what happened to Jesus’ own words:

• “No one has seen GOD at any time!!”???

They knew Jesus and the acknowledgement by Thomas is to what they had been taught about Jesus over the previous 3 years. He was equal to God and the Son and was their God, and they had worshipped Him in that time. Thomas had been brought back to that belief from doubt.
"No man has seen God at any time" Not Jesus words but true. Nobody has seen the Father, the invisible God, but we know that people have seen God in OT times. Not in His true form however probably but what they saw was none other than God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Just as the messenger of the Covenant (Jesus) who comes to His temple is also God, of the temple would not be His. (Mal 3:1)
No man has seen God but Jesus reveals Him to us because Jesus is exactly the image of God, exactly.
Jesus has the name of God. (Heb 1:3, Phil 2:9) and shines with the glory of God (Heb 1:3) God does not give His glory to another. (Isa 42:8) and He alone is Yahweh.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not understanding your point with me. I do believe that God is in Christ. Scripture tells us that. And we do follow Christ yes... But, that doesnt make him God or a god...

You, and Soapy, say that you believe that God is in Christ....yet you deny it by denying the deity of Christ.

If 'only God is good', then Christ is only (all) good if he is God.

Only God is all good
Christ is all good
Therefore, Christ is God.

So, you have to decide whether Christ was ALL GOOD. Maybe you think he was 98% good, or 75% good....in which case he was NOT GOD.

Let me know where you think he falls short!

 

[moorea944]

You, and Soapy, say that you believe that God is in Christ....yet you deny it by denying the deity of Christ.

If 'only God is good', then Christ is only (all) good if he is God.

Only God is all good
Christ is all good
Therefore, Christ is God.

So, you have to decide whether Christ was ALL GOOD. Maybe you think he was 98% good, or 75% good....in which case he was NOT GOD.

Let me know where you think he falls short!

[You, and Soapy, say that you believe that God is in Christ....yet you deny it by denying the deity of Christ.]
Absolutely not!! If that's the case then, we are all gods too. John 17 talks about that. God being in Jesus and Jesus in God. Same with us..... The issue here is that your already making Jesus God before you even go into the bible.

[If 'only God is good', then Christ is only (all) good if he is God.]
But Christ isnt God. Your making him God. Doesnt scripture tell us that there is only one God? So what your saying is that the bible is wrong and that there are two Gods. God and Jesus.

[Only God is all good
Christ is all good
Therefore, Christ is God.]
Ughhhhh........

[So, you have to decide whether Christ was ALL GOOD. Maybe you think he was 98% good, or 75% good....in which case he was NOT GOD.]
First of all, Jesus is not God. That's where we have to start. Jesus was talking about his nature. A nature that he got from his mother that is prone to sin. Jesus could have sinned if he wanted to, but chose not to. The messiah had to conquer sin, if Jesus was God, then it wouldnt have made any sense, there would be no temptation there at all. Jesus was a good person, but again, he's talking about his nature, he's not immortal yet. That perfect nature.

Plus, I"m not understanding your language here. What do you mean by "all good"? Is this something like your "very God"?

[Let me know where you think he falls short!]
I dont think Jesus falls short of anything.... do you? Is there a verse that tells us that he falls short of something? We do... we fall short of God's glory everyday. But God was working through his son.... That's how Jesus was able to conquer sin. God was working with Jesus. God was in Christ reconciling the world back to Him.

 

[Teritos]

I want to explore the truth that Yhwh God told his favoured nation that they are to worship Him, YHWH, and YHWH alone.

Why? Because the Jews (called Israelites, at that time) were living among, in and around, other tribes and nations, who worshipped many Gods.

Yhwh instructed them that they were to have no other God bug him... that HE was to be their ONE GOD.

And to this day, Jews believe that GOD, YHWH, is their ONLY GOD.

I too, believe this. But there are many who misinterpret YHWH’s directive and confound his word. The WORD OF GOD has become adulterated.

Why is it so hard to believe the word of Jesus Christ:

• “Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'" (Luke 4:8)
• “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.” (John 4:23)

Why is it difficult to to understand what yhwh said:

• "You shall have no other gods before me.“ (Exodus 20:3)
• “I am the YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God....”

And the apostles tell us:

• “yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live;” ( 1 Cor 8:6)
• “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:6)

Please note, the thread is mainly about GOD being the ONLY GOD. And that because this ONE GOD is the creator, He us rightly called, ‘FATHER’ (which means: ‘Creator’, ‘Life Giver’, ‘He that brings forth’, and ‘the Head’ by ultimate context.)

The problem is, you talk as if Jesus is not YHWH. If you would realize that Jesus is YHWH Himself in the flesh, then you would understand the scriptures you mentioned. Jesus is the incarnation of the Father, all that is the Father is also the Son, so that the Father is glorified in the Son. Anyone who sees Jesus sees the Father, anyone who says Jesus is not God and Creator is saying the Father is not God and Creator.

 

[Brian2]

Hi Brian2, I’m thinking that you are making huge basic, fundamental, and completely misinterpreted errors in your thoughts are:
The KINGDOM of GOD is not in question. It is the KINGDOM OF EARTH (creation) that was being fought over. ‘Satan’ was set as a STEWARD Angel over creation while it awaited the ‘KING’ from a human source to rule over it. ‘Satan’ imagined that he too, as Steward to the King-in-waiting over all humanity, should be worshipped, as GOD, the Creator of mankind, was worshipped, BECAUSE, he, Satan, had been involved in the CREATION of the First man. Hence the, ‘Let US create man in our image’.

GOD, himself, does not physically do things. He instructs his angels (or Angel, in thus case) and it is they (or him, Satan) that performs the physical act. (P.s. you will see, in time to come, and that time is now, that a designer, a creator, a medic,etc., will INSTRUCT a ROBOT, an automaton, a micro, macro, monstrously huge and powerful, devices to carry out the ACTUAL operation that comes from the mind of a person... imitating GOD... image of God! Are you not seeing this happening in the world: 3-Printers, tunnel borers, micro-devices in the body, robot floor cleaners, grass cutters, rescue systems, autonomous driving vehicles, Ha! Self-operating ‘Perseverance Rover’ on a totally different planet!...)

Satan created the BODY of the man, lifeless, inert, NOT LIVING,... and GOD’s creative, righteous and holy SPIRIT was used to ‘blow the breath of life into the ‘man’ (the body of the unliving man) such that the unliving man became a LIVING SOUL. Angels are not CREDITED to avoid them, too, becoming a target of worship! And all angels know and understand that, to accept worship, is to consign them-self to eternal destruction. Satan was so enamoured by the prospect that this rule SHOULD NOT APPLY TO HIM that it caused him to sin...

Your point! Satan certain CHALLENGED God about the RULERSHIP over CREATION. He did not CHALLENGE GOD about the RULERSHIP over HEAVEN!! Again, how is an ANGEL contending over the RULERSHIP of mankind if that ANGEL had no part in the CREATION of mankind? (‘Let us make man’! Good question???)

A third of the stars were pulled down to earth by the tail of dragon (Rev 12:4) Heaven was in rebellion or came into rebellion because of Satan and God knew it would happen or had happened.
You have nothing but speculation when it comes to saying that Satan or any angel was involved in the creation. Actually Gen 1:1 tells us that God created the heavens, meaning also the place where the angels would dwell. Sometime after that the angels would also have been created, we are not told when, just that it was would probably have been after the creation of the heavens.
You do not know God does not do things physically, that is speculation. Do you think that when God was walking in Eden that He sent an angel to walk for Him?
Satan's challenge, even if it was just over the creation, was over part of the Kingdom of God. But really the creation is the Kingdom of God. Do you have a speculation that the angels were not created?
It was the pre-human Jesus whom we are told was involved in the creation,,,,,,that is all we have in the Bible. The Word was there in the beginning, before the creation and all things were brought into existence through Him. We certainly know that the Word existed as a being before He became a man, that is told to us directly in Phil 2 for example.
Obviously Satan thought he should rule or challenge or something and the Bible tells us that he was corrupted by his beauty, he was proud. That is a good enough reason for him to do what he did. (Ezek 28:17)

why do I say what? That ‘comma’ makes your question ambiguous!
Anyway, I am saying what the Torah, the Old Testament, the Bible scriptures says. I wasn’t speaking of the Angels. We all know and agree that these are created beings. They are not PHYSICAL, the are SPIRIT Beings... I referenced the PHYSICAL WORLD as Creation... but really, I don’t know what you argument is. If just seems you are arguing just to say you posted something.

You seemed to be implying that only the physical creation was the creation.

The scriptures certainly say that YAHWEH alone created the heavanS and the earth.

Brian2, ‘heavenS’ (plural) is ‘INVISIBLE PLACES’ such as Sky, and celestial Space. This is NOT the same as the ‘SPIRIT REALM’ (Heaven - which is akin only by the fact that it is also an invisible realm.

So, please note the difference in text... perhaps check the Hebrew words... between ‘The Heavens’ (invisible places in the physical word) and ‘Heaven’ (the spirit abode of God and holy angels).

Sounds like you are saying God did not create the spiritual abode in the beginning (Gen 1:1)

No!
It is ‘you’, or/and the trinity fallacy that says so. It has been proved that the verses were ALTERED by editing or addition or removal by trinitarian translators (JUST AS JESUS WARNS US in the last book and chapter of the book of Revelation).

And it is for this reason that you and trinity try to RETRO fix Jesus as YAHWEH in the Old Testament (which is very hard to alter) and - it doesn’t work!!! Throughout the Old Testament GOD, Yahweh, PROPHESIES about the coming messiah. How is “GOD, who cannot lie”, prophesies about a coming messiah if that messiah was ALREADY PRESENT from eternity. Being ‘present in the PLAN of God’ for a future event does not mean ‘Currently exists’ and doing things that God says he alone did! God would certainly be telling a lie if he said he alone did something and it turns out that THREE PERSONS did it... what does ‘alone’ mean, then???

Indeed, I have yet to receive a proper response to how Jesus BECOMES ruler over creation at the end of time when trinity says it was he who created it? And trinity says Jesus is Almighty God, Yahweh ....

Jesus, then, to trinity, as GOD, DEMOTES HIMSELF to become a LESSER RULER, ruler over creation, when he, by trinity, is a MONUMENTALLY GREATER ruler over Heaven...

So,’trinity GOD’ is split!!!
Jesus is god over creation BUT the Father and the trinity person of the Holy Spirit ARE NOT... yet they are ALL ‘Co-EQUAL’!

What does ‘co-Equal’, mean?

Are you denying what is in the Bible in some places just to justify your interpretations, and saying it was altered later?
The Messiah is a man, and it is Yahweh who is the redeemer. The man was coming and as Mal 3:1 suggests, that man will be God.
3 persons yes but one God.
Jesus is Yahweh according to the scriptures even if you want to reject part of them for your doctrines.
Jesus became the human son and inherits from His Father. Ps 82 says that Yahweh inherits the earth and Ps 2 says the Messiah inherits the earth. The 2 are the one Yahweh.
The Kingdoms of the earth have become the Kingdom of God. How is this possible if God is almighty God? (Rev 11:15) Same question you pose about Jesus.
Then you go on to suggest again that the creation Jesus rules over is just the physical creation.
Co-equal means that they have the same nature, God nature, and Jesus is the Son.