Yogic Flying and Transcendental Meditation

[YmirGF]

This is because the experience is real from the point of view of its spiritual (psychological) significance.

Forgive me for interrupting, but I am very impressed by your understanding. It is a very rare treat, here on RF. When I first read this thread, my initial thoughts went to "suspended subjective perception of time", but felt the idea would simply be brushed off. It is so cool coming across another who recognizes this "feature" of time. My other thought was that "Things are often not what they seem". My last thought was, humorously, if one wishes to do these activities in real life, first, they must have a good reason to do so.

 

[apophenia]

Thanks for the kind words. I am assuming that your phrase 'suspended subjective perception of time' follows from the reference to time alteration during motorcycle mishaps etc ? Perhaps you have had similar experiences ?

Tathagata's experience could well have been of that kind.

My motorbike experience was extraordinary. I was leaning the bike into a corner at speed when I hit a wet patch, and the rear wheel let go. Instantly I was experiencing micro-moments clicking by, and was making fine adjustments in each moment. The bike remained on two wheels while doing a 360 degree turn at speed, and I kept on motoring down the highway. I don't think it's something I could ever consciously choose to do and get away with it.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't think it's something I could ever consciously choose to do and get away with it.

I had a very similar incident falling down slick wooden stairs, I was on the third floor and slipped almost from the first step. There was nothing to stop me, but a single post half way down to the second floor. Somehow, in that split second, I managed to wrap my leg around that post, while I hung out in the air... 2 stories above cement. I'm not sure how I did it, but I knew that was my only chance... and yes, time practically stopped, as did my heart when I discovered I was hanging on by one leg. The kicker is.... had I missed it, I would have darted right off, over the edge and landed, one story below, on a mean looking picket fence.

I was about 23 at the time, and in good physical shape, so I managed to climb back up. The funny thing is, I didn't drop the laundry hamper I was carrying, though the laundry went everywhere. I went out the front door, after that, LOL.

The thing is though, under certain conditions, time can almost freeze, from a subjective standpoint. Just like a minute can seem to drag on and on...


Oh, and as documented elsewhere on RF, I too have very early childhood memories. As near as my Mom and I can determine, my first memory is pegged at somewhere between 6 - 10 weeks old and was looking up into a gorgeous cherry tree, in full bloom, back-lit by the sun. (My baby buggy got parked under the cherry tree for about a month while my parents were building the family home.)

 

[apophenia]

The kicker is.... had I missed it, I would have darted right off, over the edge and landed, one story below, on a mean looking picket fence

....my first memory is pegged at somewhere between 6 - 10 weeks old and was looking up into a gorgeous cherry tree, in full bloom, back-lit by the sun. (My baby buggy got parked under the cherry tree for about a month while my parents were building the family home.)

It is amazing what our brains can do when there is no ego in the way. I've been remembering other examples over the last 30 minutes.

I watched a documentary on TV a few days ago which featured a monkey memorising randomly displayed numbers on a touch screen (random values and locations). The numbers were replaced with blank squares after a very short moment, and every time the monkey could touch the squares in order of magnitude of the numbers. Apparently no human has ever been able to perform this task at the speed the monkeys can.

I think that the process generally called ego sucks up a lot of our CNS computational power, and when that is not happening our capabilities improve by orders of magnitude. Animals and birds perform physical feats which are just staggering compared to humans, and I'm guessing that is why.


Re: memories - I've experienced a spontaneous pre-natal regression, and I'm personally convinced that memories are being formed from the get-go. In fact, I think many of our ideas of heaven, oneness, nirvana etc are to some degree based on our living experience - pre-natal memory. I'm not suggesting that that is the whole story by any means, but there was a paradise we were expelled from ...

 

[zenzero]

Friend apophenia,

Though am nowhere near to such experiences that many of you have had but can understand what happens when the mind is free from thoughts. The gap/space created in the mind freeing it from thoughts is of observation.
In samadhi have heard that the heartbeat can be slowed at will which means the ability to keep observing any action in slow motion as the observer has elongated the time.
The greater the elongation of time the deeper is the past events [regression] become clearer too. Basically its a matter of wishing and that wishing again is a matter of choice which is mostly natural is presumed.
This is subject to confirmation by experienced individuals.

Love & rgds

 

[YmirGF]

Friend apophenia,

Though am nowhere near to such experiences that many of you have had but can understand what happens when the mind is free from thoughts. The gap/space created in the mind freeing it from thoughts is of observation.
In samadhi have heard that the heartbeat can be slowed at will which means the ability to keep observing any action in slow motion as the observer has elongated the time.
The greater the elongation of time the deeper is the past events [regression] become clearer too. Basically its a matter of wishing and that wishing again is a matter of choice which is mostly natural is presumed.
This is subject to confirmation by experienced individuals.

Love & rgds

Wonderful stuff, as always, ZenZero. I know, for a fact, that even at my "novice" stage of meditation, (38 years and counting), I can:
1. Lower my heart rate
2. Lower my breathing to almost stopping
3. Lower my blood pressure.
Heck, this is so well established now, I can do it consciously, just by tuning out thought and going to what many athletes call "the zone". On a common blood pressure/heart rate device, I have measured a drop of 3 - 5 points... while being quite awake and alert and that is without going into a formal meditation where breathing would also become shallow.

It's like when I had my case of kidney stones, before the pain became unbearable, I meditated and attempted to lessen the pain by reducing these three areas. It DID help ... for a bit ... until it was painfully obvious something was VERY wrong. That is when I began doing my imitation of a cow mournfully moo-ing on all fours. But, at first, during the onset, it DID help.

Likewise, when I am feeding my wild deer, I put myself in "the zone". It does seem to calm them and they come over to investigate.

What I am thinking is this present conversation is not at all unrelated to the OP. I think it has everything to do with the OP, quite frankly. The point is, if one wishes to do these "unusual" activities, it takes a tremendous amount of time and patience to learn. Athletes spend some time, endlessly repeating tasks to put themselves in "the zone", so their body reacts automatically. My guess is that it is similar with the so-called siddhi's.

In my view, one could indeed spontaneously burst through normal abilities and enter into extraordinary abilities, but one must expect a long hard road before reaching the prize. In theory, by the time one gets to that prize, they will no longer care much about said prize. Again, in my view, it is, like bliss, simply part of the fringe benefits package of expanding awareness.

 

[DreadFish]

I would guess the basic premise is that, if any supranormal abilities are accessed, they are accessed out of heightened and broadened awareness of things.

There is another sutta I was reading yesterday, the Susima Sutta, which basically demonstrates that, having attained release through observation of dependent origination (becoming and "arahant"), suparnormal abilities are not necessarily present or a prerequisite. Basically, they have nothing to do with realization other than that expanded abilities are the result of expanded awareness and understanding of what's going on (which is a result of meditation and practicing awareness).

Incidentally, there have been even modern day reports of Dzogchen practitioners dissolving their bodies into light (which is really what it's all made of anyway) when they know their physical death is about to happen.

 

[DreadFish]

It is amazing what our brains can do when there is no ego in the way. I've been remembering other examples over the last 30 minutes.

I watched a documentary on TV a few days ago which featured a monkey memorising randomly displayed numbers on a touch screen (random values and locations). The numbers were replaced with blank squares after a very short moment, and every time the monkey could touch the squares in order of magnitude of the numbers. Apparently no human has ever been able to perform this task at the speed the monkeys can.

I think that the process generally called ego sucks up a lot of our CNS computational power, and when that is not happening our capabilities improve by orders of magnitude. Animals and birds perform physical feats which are just staggering compared to humans, and I'm guessing that is why.


Re: memories - I've experienced a spontaneous pre-natal regression, and I'm personally convinced that memories are being formed from the get-go. In fact, I think many of our ideas of heaven, oneness, nirvana etc are to some degree based on our living experience - pre-natal memory. I'm not suggesting that that is the whole story by any means, but there was a paradise we were expelled from ...

It seems that one of the main ways that ego gets in the way of our innate capacities is the ideas of "I can do this" and "I can't do this" based on intellectual and experiential knowledge. Defining ourselves right now, based on the past, we automatically limit what we are capable of in this very moment because "I am this" so naturally I can't to that, but though "I am like this" if I do this or that then "I will be like this." Each time we create a concrete state, and a concrete thing cannot change into another concrete thing. Perhaps one has to be destroyed before another concrete thing can take it's place. But there are not actually any concrete things. I think this is exactly what don Juan talks about when he recommends getting rid of personal history, self importance, and using death as an advisor. All of it puts the individual lucidly in the present without preconceptions or limitations, thus effectively dissolving one's ego and worldview (which is a big part of ego) and opening one up to the way things are which increases one's capacity of various actions. Same stuff in Buddhism, just different language and approaches.

EDIT: I think different language and approaches are very important, lest we get caught up in a concrete worldview like a Buddhist worldview or a Hindu worldview, etc. That would be just the same as having an atheist materialist worldview or a Christian worldview; it's still just an idea.

 

[YmirGF]

I think this is exactly what don Juan talks about when he recommends getting rid of personal history, self importance, and using death as an advisor. All of it puts the individual lucidly in the present without preconceptions or limitations, thus effectively dissolving one's ego and worldview (which is a big part of ego) and opening one up to the way things are which increases one's capacity of various actions. Same stuff in Buddhism, just different language and approaches.

Mmmmm, Don Juan Matus. Been awhile, since I've thought of him. I loved his comment about the "masters of the east" when Carlos asked him specifically about them.

 

[DreadFish]

Mmmmm, Don Juan Matus. Been awhile, since I've thought of him. I loved his comment about the "masters of the east" when Carlos asked him specifically about them.

I just checked out Journey to Ixtlan from the library. I read it a few years ago, but I had the urge to read it again a few days ago. With a whole new perspective and different experience, it definitely makes more sense to me now.
Also, my friend let me borrow a book by Chogyam Trungpa and, reading part of it yesterday, he also mentions don Juan.

Incidentally, the Wanderling also has pages on don Juan as well


Im not familiar with that quote about the "masters of the east," though it sounds very familiar, I've probably forgotten it.

 

[YmirGF]

Im not familiar with that quote about the "masters of the east," though it sounds very familiar, I've probably forgotten it.

He wasn't very polite.

 

[zenzero]

Friend DF,

expanded abilities are the result of expanded awareness and understanding of what's going on (which is a result of meditation and practicing awareness).

Exactly!! As beings our duty/karma/etc. if any is to be in a constant state of meditation/zone/zen/dhyana/etc. The rest happens out of its own accord!

Love & rgds

 

[apophenia]

I would guess the basic premise is that, if any supranormal abilities are accessed, they are accessed out of heightened and broadened awareness of things.

There is another sutta I was reading yesterday, the Susima Sutta, which basically demonstrates that, having attained release through observation of dependent origination (becoming and "arahant"), suparnormal abilities are not necessarily present or a prerequisite. Basically, they have nothing to do with realization other than that expanded abilities are the result of expanded awareness and understanding of what's going on (which is a result of meditation and practicing awareness).

Incidentally, there have been even modern day reports of Dzogchen practitioners dissolving their bodies into light (which is really what it's all made of anyway) when they know their physical death is about to happen.

I had a funny moment discussing this with Traleg Rinpoche at a retreat. He was using Namgyal's 'Moonbeams of Mahamudra' as a teaching text, and was going through the section which describes 'symptoms of enlightenment'. The last item was 'extraordinary feats'. I grabbed one foot and lifted it, and said 'these look like perfectly ordinary feets to me'. He leaned closer and said 'changing the karma'.

This reminded me of Freud's statement to the effect that people underrate the significance of moving from neurosis to ordinary human suffering. That is an extraordinary feat.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Paul,

I can do it consciously,

Yes,never a doubt and guess when ONLY THAT * CONSCIOUSNESS* remains; the dharma wheel gets turned!

Love & rgds

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I suppose if I really wanted to, I could levitate. I'm not so sure my core Self wants that though. At least not yet. In a dream or projection, I might be able to do that but those environments are kind of like playgrounds. It's ok to break the rules because if anything goes wrong, reality is here to jump back into. My assumption is that as awareness continues to expand the surrounding environment, "reality" as we know it, becomes easier to play with.