You are a product tester...

[Autodidact]

Because that has already been asked in multiple threads. This is similar to the myriad of ways that Christens pronounce Pascal’s Wager. The point trying to be made in all of these threads is that hell is immoral. Atheists use many different scenarios and ways to say this but that is what it comes down to.

I have a question for Atheists. Is sending someone to hell an absolute immoral act?

What is "absolute immoral" and how is it different from regular old immoral?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Because that has already been asked in multiple threads. This is similar to the myriad of ways that Christens pronounce Pascal’s Wager. The point trying to be made in all of these threads is that hell is immoral. Atheists use many different scenarios and ways to say this but that is what it comes down to.

I have a question for Atheists. Is sending someone to hell an absolute immoral act?

It's an unjust act if it doesn't fulfill a just purpose. What just purpose does Hell fulfill?

BTW - I know you didn't ask about eternal Hell, but since many people's notions of Hell include eternal punishment, I thought I should mention it: eternal punishment is necessarily unjust, since it is necessarily disproportionate to any crime committed by a finite human being.

But now those people are living with said God and they are in bliss living with him. Doesn't that mean He was all-loving?

Even when you twist things around this way, it doesn't get rid of the dilemma. If the most all-loving act would be to kill us, then God is less than all-loving in allowing us to live.

 

[Meow Mix]

BTW - I know you didn't ask about eternal Hell, but since many people's notions of Hell include eternal punishment, I thought I should mention it: eternal punishment is necessarily unjust, since it is necessarily disproportionate to any crime committed by a finite human being.

I've seen arguments that Hell is punishment for sin which is a crime against God, and that since God is infinite crime against God is infinitely punishable... not that I agree with said arguments.

 

[Atomist]

Then which Christian denomination's view of God do you want to talk about?

The ones that thinks god is all loving?

I believe in God, but I don't believe that He is all-loving. I've never read ANY Scripture that's made that claim, and the world also supports that notion.
...not really. In fact, I'm not sure I know what you're talking about.

oops

I added a condition. Your argument was that people make excuses for a certain God-concept who does this, but those same people would be appalled if a human did the same thing. However, with the conditions you provided, the hypothetical product tester was never on the same level as ANY concept of God (at least none that I've ever heard of). I added a condition to help level out the playing field a bit.

Okay, that reference to 9/11 seems random in the context of what you're talking about.

Well... I'm saying your analogy fails because god, of the christian variety if he exist, doesn't only let bad things happen to bad people... he allows the same amount of bad things to happen to good people... and good things to happen to bad people... all seemingly with the same indifference

In the condition that I added, those neighbors are hardly innocent. By "supporters of terrorism" I mean secretly giving help to terrorists, not people who simply agree with them. There's a difference.

Well I don't think your analogy works... It would work if it was like this:

You, as the product designer, have an arbitrary standard of good and evil and everyone fails this standard because their great great great great... parents broke your arbitrary rules. Yesterday, while dressed in a flame-resistant suit (up to 3,000 degrees) and carrying the latest model fire extinguisher, you discovered your neighbor's house on fire. As the flames quickly spread, you stood by and watched the family perish since by your standard your neighbor is evil and thus undeserving of your help. Which of the following best describes your behavior?

A) All-powerful
B)All-knowing
C) All-loving
D)Mysterious

 

[xkatz]

and frequently bring your work home. Yesterday, while dressed in a flame-resistant suit (up to 3,000 degrees) and carrying the latest model fire extinguisher, you discovered your neighbor's house on fire. As the flames quickly spread, you stood by and watched the family perish. Which of the following best describes your behavior?

A) All-powerful
B)All-knowing
C) All-loving
D)Mysterious

Source: Ebon Musings: Religion 101 Final Exam

G-d can't save you. G-d isn't some crutch for you. Only you can save yourself and only you can prevent forest fires

 

[Atomist]

I am more of a dog person so if I was living in bliss with dogs then, yes, dogs would be all loving. Dogs are generally more loving than cats anyway.

But dogs/cats aren't all loving... do you see why?

I've seen arguments that Hell is punishment for sin which is a crime against God, and that since God is infinite crime against God is infinitely punishable... not that I agree with said arguments.

... but how does that make any sense?

It seems like a complete non-sequitur to say that because X is infinite and a crime is against X therefore the crime is infinite.

 

[Atomist]

G-d can't save you. G-d isn't some crutch for you. Only you can save yourself and only you can prevent forest fires

So what your saying is even if god exist... we should treat god as if he doesn't exist? Since for all practical purposes he doesn't.

Apatheist for the win.

 

[xkatz]

So what your saying is even if god exist... we should treat god as if he doesn't exist? Since for all practical purposes he doesn't.

Apatheist for the win.

G-d no longer needs to help us now that we are self-sufficient. It is now up to us as human beings to decide what paths we take.

 

[Blackdog22]

Unfair comparison based on a very limited view of God.

If this aptly describes the Christian God, show me all of the verses from the NT that describe Him as all-loving (or even "mysterious").

Not to mention, let me add a condition: those neighbors are active supporters of terrorism, and you only found out about this earlier today. You were going to call the police when you got home, but saw the fire and decided not to.

Would the anger at your actions be so universal, now?

Although there are multiple perspectives and this is definitely one to consider.

The Bible however thinks that all sins are considered equally offensive towards God and deserving of equal punishments. So yeah okay, you watch the Terrorists house burn down (with his innocent kids btw), and then you watch the 9 year old who stole a candy bar last week burn to death in his tree house. Of course according to the Bible the guy with the tools to put out the fire also created the fire.

 

[Blackdog22]

I've seen arguments that Hell is punishment for sin which is a crime against God, and that since God is infinite crime against God is infinitely punishable... not that I agree with said arguments.

I would like to raise an argument to this belief if I may.

If this belief were true then God would have to be infinitely unforgiving. I would have to ask if Jesus' death didn't save us from sin on earth ( We still die, women still have pain in child birth, and snakes...um...eat dirt), and didn't save us from the "Terrible Wrath of his All loving father" then Jesus' sacrifice was worthless and this argument would be contradictory to the idea of him being our savior.

 

[Blackdog22]

G-d no longer needs to help us now that we are self-sufficient. It is now up to us as human beings to decide what paths we take.

When did God ever help us? I recall a flood, dead babies, the destruction of one universal language, people being lost for 40 years in a wilderness, genocide. Of course there is the whole Jesus thing which did nothing for us on earth at all. Also you obviously don't live in Bolivia so your idea of self sufficiency is coming from a very ignorant perspective.

I would say God needs to work on the patch 1.35 to balance out the worlds resources before he calls it a day and moves onto his next miserable project of human suffering.

 

[Riverwolf]

The ones that thinks god is all loving?

Specify.

Well... I'm saying your analogy fails because god, of the christian variety if he exist, doesn't only let bad things happen to bad people... he allows the same amount of bad things to happen to good people... and good things to happen to bad people... all seemingly with the same indifference

That's only true if the bad things that happen to good people are really happening to good people, or if they really are bad. Or, if the so-called "good" that happens to bad people really is "good." For example, the life of a mafia lord may be steeped in gold, but, man, that life must SUCK!!

Well I don't think your analogy works... It would work if it was like this:

You, as the product designer, have an arbitrary standard of good and evil and everyone fails this standard because their great great great great... parents broke your arbitrary rules. Yesterday, while dressed in a flame-resistant suit (up to 3,000 degrees) and carrying the latest model fire extinguisher, you discovered your neighbor's house on fire. As the flames quickly spread, you stood by and watched the family perish since by your standard your neighbor is evil and thus undeserving of your help. Which of the following best describes your behavior?

A) All-powerful
B)All-knowing
C) All-loving
D)Mysterious

That still fails, however, unless part of that product IS morality. Not to mention... it looks like you're going into Tanakh territory, which, in my humble opinion, is the domain of Judaism.

The only kind of God that would fit your description is one that exists among many Gods, who is overstepping his bounds set by another God.

Besides, what rules are you talking about that are arbitrary? The rules in the Torah are quite clear.

 

[Riverwolf]

Although there are multiple perspectives and this is definitely one to consider.

The Bible however thinks that all sins are considered equally offensive towards God and deserving of equal punishments. So yeah okay, you watch the Terrorists house burn down (with his innocent kids btw), and then you watch the 9 year old who stole a candy bar last week burn to death in his tree house. Of course according to the Bible the guy with the tools to put out the fire also created the fire.

Interesting. Where's the verse that says all sins are equal in God's eyes, deserving of equal punishment?

 

[Blackdog22]

Interesting. Where's the verse that says all sins are equal in God's eyes, deserving of equal punishment?

There are a couple:

James 2:10-11 (NIV)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

and

John 3:4-5
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

also

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Note that all one has to do is to tell a lie, and he deserves to go to Hell. It takes one murder to be called a murderer and one lie to be called a liar.


So in Gods eyes everyone who sins is evil and deserving of hellfire. So Timmy who told Mommy that he cleaned his room when he really didn't will "BURN" no different than Tommy the rapist.

Of course on earth we set standards of differing equality to all wrong doings. That is why Human law is better than Gods law. Which is impossible if God was real, which concludes me to believe God isn't real. At least not like the Bible says.

 

[Atomist]

Specify.

Don't need to... if your god isn't all loving this thought experiment doesn't apply to you... I don't get why you're here since you made it clear that you don't believe the god in question is all loving...

That's only true if the bad things that happen to good people are really happening to good people, or if they really are bad. Or, if the so-called "good" that happens to bad people really is "good." For example, the life of a mafia lord may be steeped in gold, but, man, that life must SUCK!!

I don't get what your argument is if you don't think god is all loving... the thought experiment is to show that "all loving" would be an absurd characteristic of god... and since you don't think god is all knowing WHY continue... you're arguing nothing since there is no point outside of that.

That still fails, however, unless part of that product IS morality. Not to mention... it looks like you're going into Tanakh territory, which, in my humble opinion, is the domain of Judaism.

The only kind of God that would fit your description is one that exists among many Gods, who is overstepping his bounds set by another God.

Besides, what rules are you talking about that are arbitrary? The rules in the Torah are quite clear.

... no... there are people who accept that god is all loving as a character trait... and no I don't need to specify... And I don't see why you would think I do need to specify.

 

[Riverwolf]

There are a couple:

James 2:10-11 (NIV)
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Okay... our modern law system still does this.

and

John 3:4-5
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Okay. Still nothing about sinners all sharing equal punishment.

also

Revelation 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Okay, then.

Anything from the Gospels?

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

...got a better translation?

Note that all one has to do is to tell a lie, and he deserves to go to Hell. It takes one murder to be called a murderer and one lie to be called a liar.

Are you sure it was talking about even innocent lies, or talking about a different kind of liar? Are you aware of the context in which those texts were written?

So in Gods eyes everyone who sins is evil and deserving of hellfire. So Timmy who told Mommy that he cleaned his room when he really didn't will "BURN" no different than Tommy the rapist.

I don't see any indication of such an extreme, unless you take the text literally. The spirit of that verse in Revelations (a text whose spiritual authenticity and usefulness I seriously question and just about deny, BTW), seems to be lumping together those who deliberately turn away from, and spit in, the face of God.

Of course on earth we set standards of differing equality to all wrong doings. That is why Human law is better than Gods law. Which is impossible if God was real, which concludes me to believe God isn't real. At least not like the Bible says.

Well, seeing as the Bible is a collection of texts and not a single text on its own (and just so you're aware, the Apocalypse of John's authenticity was in question before it was allowed, and during the Protestant reformation, it nearly got taken out), I prefer to take each text on its own.

 

[Riverwolf]

Don't need to... if your god isn't all loving this thought experiment doesn't apply to you... I don't get why your here since you made it clear that you don't believe the god in question is all loving...

I'm here to play devil's advocate.

I don't get what your argument is if you don't think god is all loving... the thought experiment is to show that "all loving" would be an absurd characteristic of god... and since you don't think god is all knowing WHY continue... you're arguing nothing since there is no point outside of that.

I felt that the argument was unfair from the beginning, so I feel the need to defend against it. I still see such a need.

You ask why I'm still here. I ask you this: why do you care whether people think God is all-loving or not?

... no... there are people who accept that god is all loving as a character trait...

So what? Let them to that belief.

and no I don't need to specify... And I don't see why you would think I do need to specify.

Because there are tons of different denominations of Christianity, all of which have conflicting teachings, yet it appears that you are lumping them all together. Such generalizations are offensive to me.

Now... do you have any real counter-arguments?

 

[Atomist]

I felt that the argument was unfair from the beginning, so I feel the need to defend against it. I still see such a need.

The only way it's disanalogous is that supposedly god has "perfect knowledge" and we have "imperfect knowledge" we can't analyze any of god's decisions on if he chooses to help people or not... but if we were to accept that then how do we know that god has perfect knowledge since we need to use our imperfect knowledge to realize that she has perfect knowledge... but since we have imperfect knowledge...

Basically it's a way to justify ANY action regardless of how wrong it seems on face value since god knows best... and therefore any immoral action (ie those in the bible) is perfectly moral just because...

You ask why I'm still here. I ask you this: why do you care whether people think God is all-loving or not?

It's absurd

So what? Let them to that belief.

Because there are tons of different denominations of Christianity, all of which have conflicting teachings, yet it appears that you are lumping them all together. Such generalizations are offensive to me.

Now... do you have any real counter-arguments?

... sigh... I'm sorry I wasn't referring to you when I said christian... but it's fair to say that most churches (that I know of) teach that god is all loving... But even so I think it's an accurate depiction of her to say she's malevolent if she doesn't help people in this case even if they're bad people. If only because it's not fair to assume that if something "bad" happens then it's because they deserved it... but then again you seem to think it's impossible for anyone to judge what is good or bad outside of god(IE whatever god does is good and whatever god does is bad).

That's only true if the bad things that happen to good people are really happening to good people, or if they really are bad. Or, if the so-called "good" that happens to bad people really is "good." For example, the life of a mafia lord may be steeped in gold, but, man, that life must SUCK!!

 

[Riverwolf]

The only way it's disanalogous is that supposedly god has "perfect knowledge" and we have "imperfect knowledge" we can't analyze any of god's decisions on if he chooses to help people or not... but if we were to accept that then how do we know that god has perfect knowledge since we need to use our imperfect knowledge to realize that she has perfect knowledge... but since we have imperfect knowledge...

Basically it's a way to justify ANY action regardless of how wrong it seems on face value since god knows best... and therefore any immoral action (ie those in the bible) is perfectly moral just because...

And FINALLY, you provide a good counter-argument against which I have nothing.

It's absurd

So what? It's absurd that some people consider Twilight to be the epitome of literature. As long as they don't kill others for disagreeing, let them to their opinions.

... sigh... I'm sorry I wasn't referring to you when I said christian... but it's fair to say that most churches (that I know of) teach that god is all loving... But even so I think it's an accurate depiction of her to say she's malevolent if she doesn't help people in this case even if they're bad people. If only because it's not fair to assume that if something "bad" happens then it's because they deserved it... but then again you seem to think it's impossible for anyone to judge what is good or bad outside of god(IE whatever god does is good and whatever god does is bad).

I don't believe good and bad exist outside of human minds. I never said I approve of the product tester's actions, no matter how terrible the neighbors may be. Quite the contrary.

By the way, I have a question. Can God only be either wholly malevolent or wholly benevolent?

 

[Atomist]

So what? It's absurd that some people consider Twilight to be the epitome of literature. As long as they don't kill others for disagreeing, let them to their opinions.

But they use it as a way to proselytize

By the way, I have a question. Can God only be either wholly malevolent or wholly benevolent?

A non-interfering god (that can't) is neither malevolent or benevolent... but a god that can interfere for the greater good but chooses not to is malevolent...