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You did it or it did you?

SoliDeoGloria

Active Member
I'm sure this has been debated in here before. I just wanted to start a new thread on the subject rather than look up an old one that probably has a bunch of posts on it already and has taken many different directions. I will first state that I believe that the idea of a "free will" is a Philosophical and Biblical contradiction. With that being stated, how do you define "free will" and can you name a decision that you have made that meets the qualifications of your definition of "free will"?

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
I define "free-will" as the ability to act without external (environment) or internal (brain function) influences of any kind. That said, I do not belive that free-will is possible.

I also believe that the idea of free-will contradicts the idea of an all-knowing and all-planning god.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I think that we will always be influenced by internal and external forces. The question is whether these forces are so constraining that they absolutely prescribe what our actions will be. Is there room for wiggle? And if so, what is the nature of that variance? Is it purely stochastic? Like the flip of a coin or a roll of the dice? And if so, does it really matter?

I don't know how to define free will so that it actually makes sense. But I do know that I must (or choose to) live as if we have it. To do otherwise is to say that we bear no responsibility for our actions. And not only would that wreak havoc on society but I for one do not wish to live believing that I don't make my own choices. Or at least I think that I don't wish to. If it even makes sense to use the word "I" without a concept of free-will.

An example of my using my free-will: I chose to respond to your post. :p
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Well, I believe that free will is possible. The interaction of your mind with the outer world is free will, although not full free will (which is probably impossible). You are always effected by both external and internal forces. The extent of these is the variable. Neither of them is so great that you have no free will, for the average person.

Besides, what does it matter? Would you really care if you couldn't choose?

I was just reminded of something from Dungeons and Dragons. It said, in the Player's Manual, that a true neutral character was not so uninfluenced by external forces that he would be as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it. :p
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I wonder if it matters whether we have free will or not. Would we be any different with free will than without it?

Do we need the concept of free will to explain anything that needs explaining?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
“Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. Which sort is the free will sort is what all the fuss is about. (And what a fuss it has been: philosophers have debated this question for over two millenia, and just about every major philosopher has had something to say about it.) Most philosophers suppose that the concept of free will is very closely connected to the concept of moral responsibility. Acting with free will, on such views, is just to satisfy the metaphysical requirement on being responsible for one's action. (Clearly, there will also be epistemic conditions on responsibility as well, such as being aware—or failing that, being culpably unaware—of relevant alternatives to one's action and of the alternatives' moral significance.) But the significance of free will is not exhausted by its connection to moral responsibility.

Great article about this topic here.
 

Nick Soapdish

Secret Agent
SoliDeoGloria said:
I'm sure this has been debated in here before. I just wanted to start a new thread on the subject rather than look up an old one that probably has a bunch of posts on it already and has taken many different directions. I will first state that I believe that the idea of a "free will" is a Philosophical and Biblical contradiction. With that being stated, how do you define "free will" and can you name a decision that you have made that meets the qualifications of your definition of "free will"?
The two alternatives "you did it" and "it did you" are too black and white to represent reality. Our dualistic nature is composed of elements from each of these alternatives.

From a philosophical perspective, I believe freewill is in essence an act of creativity. We are made as creative creatures in that we can produce ideas which are not caused by mere mechanical procedure. As NetDoc notes, artistic and critical thinking capabilities are also dependant on this creative side. We were not built as robots that follow prescribed algorithms.

If we were the only inhabitants of the Universe (as creative creatures), perhaps we could create it however we wanted, like a lucid dream. However, once we share the same environment with other creatures with freewill, there must be a means to resolve conflicts between the wills. For example, if I want the couch on the north side of the room, and my wife would like the couch on the south side of the room, there must be some mechanism to resolve this conflict. This could easily be implemented as a set of rules, such as the laws of physics. As such, our bodies become the instrument of our will to act as we wish in this Universe. C.S. Lewis proposes that this arrangement is so that our free spirits have an environment in which we can build relationships with each other.

However, for us to have meaningful relationships the interaction cannot be one way. We can not only affect the Universe, but the Universe can affect us. Our bodies impose impulses and desires onto us, and it is from these impulses that we base our actions. Our consciousness is the arena where our impulses are presented to us, and where the will deliberates and manifests itself. Without our conscious being, our freewill would not exist. If we become drunk, or have a sudden fit of rage, our consciousness becomes altered and our freewill becomes impotent.

In order to overcome a strong impulse, a person must have a strong will. One might argue that the strongest impulse will always win, but I do not think it is this simple. How it decides what option to pick cannot be formulated with any set of absolute rules, but rather it is a self-determining thing which operates under its own direction and not according to an external necessity (such as the laws of nature).

So our being is a complex engagement between the "I did it" and the "it did me". Our will is influenced by the impulses imposed by the external, yet the ultimate decision is determined by the internal. To follow this, one will need to understand the consciousness as an elementary entity in itself, basic and absolute, and not reducible to smaller components each with their own operation.

That is all I have time for right now, I will address the Biblical side later. :)
 
M

Majikthise

Guest
I believe we can have free will, some just choose to give it up.;)

I guess that choice is free will.Hmmmm.
 

Lycan

Preternatural
Freewill to me is the ability to choose from various option without the intervention of a higher power.

I believe that freewill is an impossibility with an omniscient god. On the other hand since my gods are not omniscient, I do believe we have freewill.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Free Will to me is the ability to make a choice with or without internal and or external influences taken into account...

to say free will doesn't exist is to say that there is no difference between Hitler and the late Pope...that is something i can not bring myself to do
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
jewscout said:
to say free will doesn't exist is to say that there is no difference between Hitler and the late Pope...that is something i can not bring myself to do
Why do you say this?
 

Cr0wley

More Human Than Human
truthseekingsoul said:
Why do you say this?
Because Hitler's free will made him massacre millions of Jews and the Pope's free will made him into the man he was. jewscout just made the point that if they didn't have free will they'd both be similar people. Or something to that effect (if I understood it right...)
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
Cr0wley said:
Because Hitler's free will made him massacre millions of Jews and the Pope's free will made him into the man he was. jewscout just made the point that if they didn't have free will they'd both be similar people. Or something to that effect (if I understood it right...)
exactly Cr0wley!
to say that there is no free will we are all just products of a finite amount of external and internal variables is to say that Hitler and his buddies are not responsible for anything they did because they were just going to do it anyways, that's just the way they are...you can't punish them for what they did, no more than you can punish a dog for being a dog...
that is something i can not say
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I would modify Ceridwen's proposed definition:

I define "free-will" as the ability to act in spite of external (environment) or internal (brain function) influences of any kind. THis would include the ability to "think outside of the box" as well as to make decisions that put you at risk in order to help others (selflessness).
 

SoliDeoGloria

Active Member
I don't know how to define free will so that it actually makes sense.
There's a very good reason for that

But I do know that I must (or choose to) live as if we have it. To do otherwise is to say that we bear no responsibility for our actions. And not only would that wreak havoc on society but I for one do not wish to live believing that I don't make my own choices. Or at least I think that I don't wish to. If it even makes sense to use the word "I" without a concept of free-will.
In other words, you must chose to live as if we have it because "to do other wise is to say that we bear no responsibility for our actions." etc. You see, you directly unaffirm or contradict you argument for chosing to live like you have free will. In a nutshell, you list a powrfull cause and effect. The cause being "to do otherwise is to say that we bear no responsibility for our actions... would that wreak havoc on society... I do not wish to to believe that I do not make my own choices". The effect being you "must (or chose to) live like you have it.

An interesting misunderstanding that most people make when someone brings up the idea that "free will" does not truly exist is that the one who is making the statement must be concluding that humans are "robots" or that "we are not responsible for our choices" I believe that we have the ability to make choices, i.e. we have a will, I just believe that what influences us, desires, known consequences, etc. take away what we define as a freedom to make any choices without them. What hold humans responsible for their actions is not just that they made a choice, but that they had a knowledge about the choice that they made, i.e. they knew what their desires were, possible consequences, etc. We surely wouldn't hold a baby responsible for playing with matches and burning a building down because we know that the baby had absolutely no knowledge of what the consequences of it actions were. There is a reason why people can claim insanity in their defense against a criminal charge. Once again it boils down to what knowledge they had, not just that they made a choice.

An example of my using my free-will: I chose to respond to your post. :p
The next question would be why did you respond to my post?

The extent of these is the variable. Neither of them is so great that you have no free will, for the average person.
How do you measure this? This reminds of the book "the Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. I wish I could remember more specific details, but in it there is a section about hell and Lee Strobel asks this theologin why doesn't God just let people have a second chance when they see that God is indeed real and so is heaven and hell, and the person ansers something to the effect of because the knowledge of this and the influence of being in the pressence of God would be so strong that it would take away the person's free will. So the question becomes, if there is an acknowledgement that there is a possibility of so much influence that it takes away the free will, what then is too much influnece? Or doens't that defeat the definition of the word influence?

Besides, what does it matter? Would you really care if you couldn't choose?


I wonder if it matters whether we have free will or not. Would we be any different with free will than without it?

Do we need the concept of free will to explain anything that needs explaining?
Now, I realize that this argument can go both ways but I am going to answer this question despite that for the sake of answering the question. In His book "Confessions", Augustine is finally able to overcome the so called logic of the manichees against the arguments for the belief in the Christian God because he realizes that it is just unlogical. He even realizes that it is logical to believe in God. His only hangup after that is that he was living with a woman and fornicating with her like he had been for quite some time with numurous women. It took a mysterious voice to overcome this. You see, a major implication of there being no free will is that there are more reasons than people are either willing to admit or are simply ignorant of for why they believe what they believe. Does the Atheist believe what they believe simply because of what they believe to be logic or is there something else going on?

P.S. due to a family and work I don't have the time I wished to respond to more of the posts. I'm sure this breaks a lot of people's hearts . I won't be able to get online tomorrow night either, but I promise to be back as soon as possible.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
Well, how does or would one differentiate between which is the free will and which is the pre-determined will? We obviously are not sure about a lot of things and free will is just one of them. How can we be even sure that the supposed free will that we are supposedly making are actually free? For all we know, all the seemingly random acts that we do could be pre-destined or set by faith and whatnot.

Personally I don't believe in pre-destination or the idea that any force is controlling and limiting what I can and can't be/do from the moment of birth.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
aunggu2002 said:
Personally I don't believe in pre-destination or the idea that any force is controlling and limiting what I can and can't be/do from the moment of birth.
Doesn't human nature have limits? For everything we are, there are many things we are not.

The simplest way of looking at that point is physiologically. We don't have small, soft bodies like most species of octopuses, so we can't squeeze through a hole the size of a quarter.
 

SoliDeoGloria

Active Member
The two alternatives "you did it" and "it did you" are too black and white to represent reality.


The title was just an attempt at getting people's attention, no more. In other words, That is not the way I see things.



From a philosophical perspective, I believe freewill is in essence an act of creativity. We are made as creative creatures in that we can produce ideas which are not caused by mere mechanical procedure. As NetDoc notes, artistic and critical thinking capabilities are also dependant on this creative side. We were not built as robots that follow prescribed algorithms.

Even our creative side has a a base to it and a reason behind it. For example even artists use reality as inspiration. Even abstract art has emotions behind it and even driving it. I would love for someone to name something "creative" that had absolutely no inward or outward inspiration (Ecc. 1:9). The whole definition of the word "critical" begs to differ the description given above.



*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Critical \Crit"ic*al\ (kr[i^]t"[i^]*kal), a. [See {Critic}, n.,
{Crisis}.]
[1913 Webster]
1. Qualified to criticise, or pass judgment upon, literary or
artistic productions.
[1913 Webster]

It is submitted to the judgment of more critical
ears to direct and determine what is graceful and
what is not. --Holder.
[1913 Webster]

2. Pertaining to criticism or the critic's art; of the nature
of a criticism; accurate; as, critical knowledge; a
critical dissertation.
[1913 Webster]



"critical thinking" could not be critical by definition if it had no bases for it's judgement.



If we were the only inhabitants of the Universe (as creative creatures), perhaps we could create it however we wanted, like a lucid dream.


As a Christian Theist, I only know of one creator that has this ability, and he doesn't even need a 'lucid dream" for inspiration. Can you describe a dream that you have had that has had no basis from the reality that you know or inspiration from emotions, etc.? I sincerely can't.



However, once we share the same environment with other creatures with freewill, there must be a means to resolve conflicts between the wills. For example, if I want the couch on the north side of the room, and my wife would like the couch on the south side of the room, there must be some mechanism to resolve this conflict. This could easily be implemented as a set of rules, such as the laws of physics. As such, our bodies become the instrument of our will to act as we wish in this Universe. C.S. Lewis proposes that this arrangement is so that our free spirits have an environment in which we can build relationships with each other

This is an example of wills driven by selfish desires for all sorts of reasons. This is not an example of wills that had no influence behind them. The resolve is needed because the first "law of Thelema"( Do what thou wilst, Make it the whole of your law) could never work. We are selfish beings, that are never satisfied, no matter what the costs. If there were no laws, we'd eventually destroy ourselves.



However, for us to have meaningful relationships the interaction cannot be one way. We can not only affect the Universe, but the Universe can affect us. Our bodies impose impulses and desires onto us, and it is from these impulses that we base our actions. Our consciousness is the arena where our impulses are presented to us, and where the will deliberates and manifests itself. Without our conscious being, our freewill would not exist. If we become drunk, or have a sudden fit of rage, our consciousness becomes altered and our freewill becomes impotent.

So either our impulses or consciouces is in control of our wills. My favorite part of this argument is the last sentence, because if it is true than it must also be true that if our consciousness alters our impulses, since they both drive our wills, then our "freewill" has once again become impotent. Either way, the only logical conclusion of this argument is that whenever any influence that drives our wills is altered, it takes away the potency of out "freewills". On top of that, I'm sure science can come up with an argument stating that our conscious is just as much a part of our bodies as our "impulses".

In order to overcome a strong impulse, a person must have a strong will. One might argue that the strongest impulse will always win, but I do not think it is this simple. How it decides what option to pick cannot be formulated with any set of absolute rules, but rather it is a self-determining thing which operates under its own direction and not according to an external necessity (such as the laws of nature).
Name an inpulse as you defined above that is not considered a law of nature(the impulse for survival, the impulse for pleasure, etc). After that, name an issue of the conscious, like morality, logic, etc. that was not taught or had any sort of external influence.

That is all I have time for right now, I will address the Biblical side later. :)
please do

to say free will doesn't exist is to say that there is no difference between Hitler and the late Pope...that is something i can not bring myself to do
All one needs to do to see the difference between these two is to look at what influnces them. For Hitler, read "Meine Komph", which he authored and is a telling book describing the plans he had before he implemented them and his inspiration behind those plans. For the Pope, read the Bible, I am sure that any good follower of Catholicism and the pope would agree with Phi. 2:12.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
Doesn't human nature have limits? For everything we are, there are many things we are not.
Good point! Our choices are completely limited to what we are physically capable of. For instance, I cannot choose to fly or turn invisible.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Ceridwen018 said:
Good point! Our choices are completely limited to what we are physically capable of. For instance, I cannot choose to fly or turn invisible.
However, should you choose to try, and find yourself successful, please share. I could do with flight.
 
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