You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

[nameless]

If you are aware of your surroundings then, to some degree, you have free-will. Self-awareness (sentience) is the dividing line.

im sure you missed my last post, that only immovable trees have 'no free will'.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

i could not get any answer for my question in these, my question is whether there is 'freedom of belief' in 'free-will', no more example pls......

You do in so far as you can choose what you wish to believe.

 

[nameless]

You do in so far as you can choose what you wish to believe.

haha, i was sure you would answer something like this at some point of time and this is due to 'no free-will' of yours, lol

 

[The_Evelyonian]

you and your belief should have to be proud for developing this new sense for concept of 'free-will'.

It's not a new concept. It is the definition of free-will. You've simply confused 'free-will' with 'freedom' and, for the last time, they are two different things.

 

[nameless]

Enough, I've done the best I can. If you can't grasp it then I'm truly sorry. I hope that somewhere you can find a satisfactory answer. I'll not post in this thread again.

~Peace~

just let me know whether there exists 'freedom of belief' in 'free-will' !!!
free-will without freedom? : :bow:

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Freedom of belief as it is normally defined (the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.) exists within free-will, in fact, it is granted by it.

Freedom of belief as you seem to define it (The freedom to believe whatever you want without consequence) does not. In fact, that kind of freedom (absolute freedom) does not exist anywhere. There are always outside constraints of one form of another.

I can believe that by leaping off of the Sears Tower I can fly to the moon (freedom of belief), I can try (freedom of belief & free-will), I will fall (Gravity, an outside constraint).

I'm sorry that I can't give you simple, concise answers but this is not a simple subject. In fact, people have been arguing this very thing for centuries.

 

[nameless]

you are making continousily making contradicting statements to justify your point.

so if someone threatens to kill you if not followed he command, then it means he is offering you 'freedom of belief', since you have two options, am i right?

No, he is offering you 'no freedom of belief'. Freedoms of law (like freedom of belief) and free-will are two different things which I've said several times before.

see your definition for 'freedom of belief'

Freedom of belief at it is normally defined (the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.) exists within free-will, in fact, it is granted by it.

kindly maintain minimum honesty. :sarcastic

I'm sorry that I can't give you simple, concise answers but this is not a simple subject. In fact, people have been arguing this very thing for centuries.

finally you are blaming the topic as you are answerless !!!

 

[The_Evelyonian]

see your definition for 'freedom of belief'

The freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.

This is not only my definition but the definition of freedom of belief.

kindly maintain minimum honesty. :sarcastic

Are you accusing me of lying?

finally you are blaming the topic as you are answerless !!!

Reread my last post here. You asked if freedom of belief exists within free-will. I answered your question. I'm sorry if it's not an answer you like.

Please kindly refrain from personal attacks in the future.

 

[nameless]

Freedom of belief as it is normally defined (the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.) exists within free-will, in fact, it is granted by it.

if this is your explanation for 'freedom of belief', how would you explain 'free-will'? are they both the same?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Greatest Am I,

Consciousness thinks.
Rocks are a form. They seem to think poorly.

You missed!
Consciousness is *CONSCIOUSNESS*, where there are no-thoughts!
Rocks too have consciousness.

Love & rgds

 

[The_Evelyonian]

if this is your explanation for 'freedom of belief', how would you explain 'free-will'? are they both the same?

Here is how free-will is defined:

The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions; The doctrine that human beings (and possibly other beings, such angels or higher animals) are able to choose their actions without being caused to do so by external forces

and, once again, freedom of belief:

The freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.

While they are similar, they are not exactly the same thing.

'Freedom of belief' is being able to choose what you want to believe.

'Free-will' is being able to make your own choices.

 

[nameless]

im not sure whether you are purposefully acting ignorant, anyway i will make the question more clear.

Freedom of belief at it is normally defined (the freedom of an individual to hold or consider a fact, viewpoint, or thought, independent of others' viewpoints.) exists within free-will, in fact, it is granted by it.

so where ever there is 'free-will' there is 'freedom of belief',

Yes, and that's the point. If I say to you, "Believe like me or I'll kill you." you can still refuse. The fact that you may not want to doesn't matter. You still can. That is free-will.

this is free-will

so if someone threatens to kill you if not followed he command, then it means he is offering you 'freedom of belief', since you have two options, am i right?

No, he is offering you 'no freedom of belief'. Freedoms of law (like freedom of belief) and free-will are two different things which I've said several times before.

here he has 'free-will' to chose his belief by either obeying or rejecting, as 'free-will' grants 'freedom of belief' then here exists 'freedom of belief' contradicting your statement that there is 'no freedom of belief'.

 

[cardero]

Yes.



I don't know. I'm not God.

The _Eveloyonian, are you familiar with the term “false choice?”

 

[The_Evelyonian]

so where ever there is 'free-will' there is 'freedom of belief',

Yes.

this is free-will

Yes.

here he has 'free-will' to chose his belief by either obeying or rejecting, as 'free-will' grants 'freedom of belief' then here exists 'freedom of belief' contradicting your statement that there is 'no freedom of belief'.

And here's the root of the problem. You asked what he was being offered, not what he had. I can offer you no freedom of belief but I can't remove your ability to choose what you believe for yourself.

 

[nameless]

And here's the root of the problem. You asked what he was being offered, not what he had. I can offer you no freedom of belief but I can't remove your ability to choose what you believe for yourself.

Free-will is being allowed to make your own decisions, even with knowledge of the consequences.

i sense 'being allowed' is same as 'offering'.
so by allowing 'free-will' you are offering 'freedom of belief'.

 

[TashaN]

but, will there be any consequences for selecting path our life? if there is consequences for that, path selection will be 'limited freedom' or 'no freedom'?

limited freedom.

My statement stands and you still have God interfering with our free will.

Regards
DL

If he didn't, then he wouldn't have punished those who disbelieved in him.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

i sense 'being allowed' is same as 'offering'.
so by allowing 'free-will' you are offering 'freedom of belief'.

In it's simplest sense. The fact that you have free-will means that you can choose what you will and will not believe.

 

[nameless]

In it's simplest sense. The fact that you have free-will means that you can choose what you will and will not believe.

but have to face punishment, so it is conditional, hence a free-will without freedom !!! :no:

 

[The_Evelyonian]

but have to face punishment, so it is conditional, hence a free-will without freedom !!! :no:

And as I said before, all choices have consequences. Absolute freedom, the freedom to make choices and not have to face the consequences of those choices, does not exist anywhere.

 

[MSizer]

In it's simplest sense. The fact that you have free-will means that you can choose what you will and will not believe.

No, it doesn't. That's already been pointed out to you. So basically if what you say is true, then a person with a head injury is doomed to go to hell. Decision making (you asked for this - I try to keep neurology out because it makes me look like a know it all, but you're ignoring the facts that have already been stated) is a product of inhibition and self control. Both are concious mind actions controlled by the pre-frontal lobe of the neo-cortex. People with lesions to this area of the brain are known to consistently make choices that yield small immediate rewards over long term larger gains (ie; savings bonds, proper diet, and god). The amygdala also plays a role in making a decision, by evaluating the emotional relevance of a decision. That's why we sometimes know something seems to make sense, but we just can't bring ourselves to do it. That's of course why low seratonin levels makes people less co-operative in social situations. That's also why people make bad decisions when sleep deprived. Dood, it's all neurochemical. Belief is not a matter of choice - it's unconcious. Choice is concious, beleif is not. It comes from the reptilian brain, which means it's beyond our control. Try forcing yourself to believe that Bon Jovi is a candy bar. Good luck. You don't choose to believe it's an 80s hair band, you simply do. (if you don't, then we have to talk about some other neural conditions).