Your idea of Christianity and Jesus is incorrect, the correct interpretation, is incorrect.

[Desert Snake]

Anyone notice this pattern?
An argument against Xianity is often presented as 'Jesus is not the Messiah'.
Then, when Xians say, well, He isn't just a ''Messiah'', He is God, those same people state that the correct interpretation, of Scripture, is that Jesus is not God, just a false Messiah.
Very convenient; the only correct interpretation of Scripture, then, is false.

 

[fantome profane]

Anyone notice this pattern?
An argument against Xianity is often presented as 'Jesus is not the Messiah'.
Then, when Xians say, well, He isn't just a ''Messiah'', He is God, those same people state that the correct interpretation, of Scripture, is that Jesus is not God, just a false Messiah.
Very convenient; the only correct interpretation of Scripture, then, is false.

I think the problem lies in treating scripture as a singular entity, as if there was one scripture. When in reality there are multiple scriptures. One author has one view of who and what Jesus was, and he writes his scripture to reflect that view. And other author has a different view, and so his scripture reflects that view.

What we need to do is stop asking "what does scripture say" and start breaking it down, "what does this book say", and "what does that book say".

 

[Desert Snake]

I think the problem lies in treating scripture as a singular entity, as if there was one scripture. When in reality there are multiple scriptures. One author has one view of who and what Jesus was, and he writes his scripture to reflect that view. And other author has a different view, and so his scripture reflects that view.

What we need to do is stop asking "what does scripture say" and start breaking it down, "what does this book say", and "what does that book say".

I can see the logic in that. It would be similar to choosing a single Gospel to argue, etc.

 

[Nietzsche]

I think the problem lies in treating scripture as a singular entity, as if there was one scripture. When in reality there are multiple scriptures. One author has one view of who and what Jesus was, and he writes his scripture to reflect that view. And other author has a different view, and so his scripture reflects that view.

What we need to do is stop asking "what does scripture say" and start breaking it down, "what does this book say", and "what does that book say".

That's one of the largest problems with the Bible, or at least with what people think about it. You're basically reading a small library of books(with some of them written hundreds, perhaps even a few thousand, years apart) while expecting internal consistency and internal coherency.

 

[jeager106]

Anyone notice this pattern?
An argument against Xianity is often presented as 'Jesus is not the Messiah'.
Then, when Xians say, well, He isn't just a ''Messiah'', He is God, those same people state that the correct interpretation, of Scripture, is that Jesus is not God, just a false Messiah.
Very convenient; the only correct interpretation of Scripture, then, is false.

Well why can't Jesus be God's earthy Son and our Savior, the Holy Spirit the means by
which God works, and God be God?

 

[Ingledsva]

Anyone notice this pattern?
An argument against Xianity is often presented as 'Jesus is not the Messiah'.
Then, when Xians say, well, He isn't just a ''Messiah'', He is God, those same people state that the correct interpretation, of Scripture, is that Jesus is not God, just a false Messiah.
Very convenient; the only correct interpretation of Scripture, then, is false.

I have been telling you all along that Jesus IS claiming to be the MESSIAH, a HUMAN from the line of David, - and He NEVER claims to be God, or part of any trinity.

The Hebrew Messiah is NOT a God, - he is a special HUMAN from the Line of David, - whom brings about the End, and Final Judgment of those waiting in Sheol.

He is not a God.

*

 

[Randy Carson]

I have been telling you all along that Jesus IS claiming to be the MESSIAH, a HUMAN from the line of David, - and He NEVER claims to be God, or part of any trinity.

The Hebrew Messiah is NOT a God, - he is a special HUMAN from the Line of David, - whom brings about the End, and Final Judgment of those waiting in Sheol.

He is not a God.

*

Here is something I have been putting together as I read the NT:

The Divinity of Jesus Christ Proved from Scripture

I. Did Jesus claim to be God?

1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)

Exodus 3:14

13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I amhas sent me to you.’”15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘TheLord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?”54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God.55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw itand was glad.”57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?

2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.

John 5:16-18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.17 In his defense Jesus said to them,“My Fatheris always at his workto this very day, and I too am working.”18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him;not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,comingwith the clouds of heaven.He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.14 He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,”said Jesus.“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes.“Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked.64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here is the thing, though. (Butting my head in here) I will use an analogy and it will be laymans terms. I read the scripture youve posted. Ill try to make it simple and brief.

My mother (Sara) is my biological mother. We share the same blood. She passed away two years ago (analogy not real). My siblings are older now. My sister (Carol) wants to know her mother who died at her birth.

She only knows her through me.

1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)

I am my mother's child. I can claim the right to speak on her behalf, say "I am her" in that context because she is my mother. So we are both one person. We are not each other.

2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God

Hencd because we are one person, share one pure blood line, my mother and I are both equal to each other. So when I speak to Carol (my sibling) about our mother, Carol knows and trusts that I am am the image or representation of our mother. Yet she knows, I am not her. What I say she trust is the exact same as our mother's words; but, the fact is, I am not her.

3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone

I am the only one who can speak on our mother's behalf because I am the eldest. I am the first born so I have the right to speak as my mother. I will be the last to speak on her behalf. No one else was given the honor to do so. My mother intrusted Me to speak for her. No one else.

4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth

When Carol (my sister) talks to me, I tell her. Our mother has given Me the authority to talk for her. If you want to know about our mother, I am the only one who has the True Knowledge about her. I alone have the truth to who she is and what she wanted me to tell you all. I have the Truth. Yet, Carol knows that by my claiming to be the truth, I am acting as my mother if she were alive in flesh. I took on her role. Yet, Carol knows I am not her.

5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory

As thr eldest to my mother, I share in her knowledge she gave me when she was living. We share evrrything together. That is why Carol trusts me so much AS IF I am her mother because of the role and authority I was given by our mother to speak on our mother's behalf.

6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

I cant fit the analogy in with this.
--
Everytime Carol talks to me, she is talking to her mother. Yet, she knows I am not her; but, inside, she knows I am. That does not mean I am not my mother's child. It doesnt mean our mother is not equal to her eldest. It doesnt mean that I am not the "chosen" the I Am to speak on my mother's behalf. Everything runs smoothly without no one thinking I am my mother.

Do you understand? Even if you disagree.

 

[Ingledsva]

Here is something I have been putting together as I read the NT:

The Divinity of Jesus Christ Proved from Scripture

I. Did Jesus claim to be God?

1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)

Exodus 3:14

13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.”And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I amhas sent me to you.’”15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘TheLord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

ING - Pure Bull! and Christian purposeful mistranslation. It uses YHVH - and says that is the NAME!

Exo 3:3 And YHVH saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohiym called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, I am here.

Exo 3:15 And Elohim said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YHVH, the Elohe of your fathers, the Elohe of Abraham, the Elohe of Isaac, and the Elohe of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is how I should be remembered from generation to generation.

So again BALONEY!

John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?”54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God.55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw itand was glad.”57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
Incorrect translation - and

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?

ING - As has already been said, mistranslations. Even in the text where they translated it GOD, - The word uses has other meaning such as MAGISTRATE, and CHOSEN ONES. When they use it Jesus quotes a Tanakh text that make it very clear the use is MAGISTRATE/JUDGE. He was claiming to be the Final Magistrate - The awaited MESSIAH, - with power over them. That made them angry enough to kill him.

2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.

John 5:16-18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.17 In his defense Jesus said to them,“My Fatheris always at his workto this very day, and I too am working.”18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him;not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

ING - ALL of the Hebrew people are called Sons of God! YHVH is their Father.

3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

ING - the same words are NOT used. YHVH is the First and Last of all things.

Jesus as Messiah is the first - monogenes of a special kind - on earth - the ONLY awaited MESSIAH sent from YHVH. - and he is the last of his kind, - as he brings about the END, and Final Judgment of ALL in Sheol.

He nowhere claims to be God.

He is in no way being called the same as the Father.

4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

ING - First - again read it in the Greek. Secondly, as the Messiah with the Logos/Law ENFLESHED within him, he is the truth.

5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

ING - How convenient that you chose another verse where YHVH tells us his NAME is YHVH.

Isa 42:8 I am YHVH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

And in CONTEXT -

Isa 42:6 I YHVH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isa 42:8 I am YHVH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

This very obviously is YHVH saying leave off worshiping Pagan Gods and images, He will not share his glory with them..

6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,comingwith the clouds of heaven.He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.14 He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him.His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.

ING - Baloney! And again look it up in the original language.

Also - even if you take it as translated - the Son of Man, for the Hebrew, would be their awaited Messiah. Not a God. Nor does it say that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God! Again - the awaited Jewish Messiah - Son of Man - because he is a special HUMAN - is to bring about the END, and sit beside YHVH in Final Judgment. He is not a God, or part of a trinity. Ask a Jew!

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,”said Jesus.“And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes.“Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked.64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.

EXPAND HIS to read all replies -

Every one of these has been debunked Using their original languages.

And - "I am" is not the Divine Name - again in the original it is YHVH.

Jesus claims to be the awaited Messiah, not God, not part of a trinity.

In that last one - Mark 14:61-65 - he is claiming to be EXACTLY what he is, - THE AWAITED MESSIAH - a HUMAN from the Line of DAVID!

NOT A GOD, - NOR PART OF ANY TRINITY.

He is giving them the MESSIAH info.

*

 

[kepha31]

EXPAND HIS to read all replies -

Every one of these has been debunked Using their original languages.

And - "I am" is not the Divine Name - again in the original it is YHVH.

The original languages affirm Christ's divinity. YHVH is Hebrew. The vowels have been dropped from "Yahweh" because Hebrew has no vowels. YHVH is another form of Jehova, which means God, and appears in the Old Testament 6000 times, either alone or in conjunction with another Divine name.

Moses asks: What is his God's name? What shall I say to them?"
In reply, God returns three times to the determination of His name.
We have the renderings: "I am who am" (Vulgate), "I am who is" (Septuagint), "I shall be [who] shall be" (Aquila, Theodotion), "the Eternal who does not cease" etc.

The second time, God uses again the first person imperfect of the Hebrew verb "to be"; "He Who Is, hath sent me to you" instead of "I Am, hath sent me to you: (Vulgate); "ho on sent me to you" (Septuagint); "I am who am, and who shall be, hath sent me to you" (Targ. Jon.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Jehovah (Yahweh)

Jesus claims to be the awaited Messiah, not God, not part of a trinity.

The Jews did not expect the Messiah to be fully God and fully man, and they certainly didn't expect a humble rabbi to be sacrificed for the redemption of the human race. The concept was way over their heads. There are many more scriptures where Jesus claimed to be God that have not been mentioned.

In that last one - Mark 14:61-65 - he is claiming to be EXACTLY what he is, - THE AWAITED MESSIAH - a HUMAN from the Line of DAVID!

You are leaving out the prophecy in Daniel. No one is saying He is not the awaited Messiah, and no one has said He is not human.

NOT A GOD, - NOR PART OF ANY TRINITY.

"Not a god" is a poor choice of words.
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name* of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
It doesn't say "in the names of", it says, "in the name of". singular.

He is giving them the MESSIAH info.

This is what large red font means:

 

[Ingledsva]

The original languages affirm Christ's divinity. YHVH is Hebrew. The vowels have been dropped from "Yahweh" because Hebrew has no vowels. YHVH is another form of Jehova, which means God, and appears in the Old Testament 6000 times, either alone or in conjunction with another Divine name.

EDIT - Forgot to add - YHVH does NOT mean GOD! YHVH tells us this is his name and to call him such. Obviously the original language has nothing what so ever to do with the Christian Jesus!

Moses asks: What is his God's name? What shall I say to them?"
In reply, God returns three times to the determination of His name.
We have the renderings: "I am who am" (Vulgate), "I am who is" (Septuagint), "I shall be [who] shall be" (Aquila, Theodotion), "the Eternal who does not cease" etc.

The second time, God uses again the first person imperfect of the Hebrew verb "to be"; "He Who Is, hath sent me to you" instead of "I Am, hath sent me to you: (Vulgate); "ho on sent me to you" (Septuagint); "I am who am, and who shall be, hath sent me to you" (Targ. Jon.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Jehovah (Yahweh)

ING - All of this has been discussed before. As shown He says his name is YHVH. And I also showed the Jewish sites saying this is the original name of their God, and the one he says to call him!

Exo 3:3 And YHVH saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohiym called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, I am here.

Exo 3:15 And Elohim said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YHVH, the Elohe of your fathers, the Elohe of Abraham, the Elohe of Isaac, and the Elohe of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is how I should be remembered from generation to generation.

Isa 42:8 I am YHVH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


The Jews did not expect the Messiah to be fully God and fully man, and they certainly didn't expect a humble rabbi to be sacrificed for the redemption of the human race. The concept was way over their heads. There are many more scriptures where Jesus claimed to be God that have not been mentioned.

ING - Why would they? That is not in the prophecies. And they have no God but ONE - YHVH, - no trinity.

And again we have discussed these scriptures - and in NONE of them does Jesus claim to be God. He only claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah, a HUMAN from the line of David.

You are leaving out the prophecy in Daniel. No one is saying He is not the awaited Messiah, and no one has said He is not human.

ING - Always give the book and verse so we can look them up in the original languages.

Also, what is your point here? The Jewish Messiah is not a GOD, - he is a special human from the line of David.

"Not a god" is a poor choice of words.
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name* of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
It doesn't say "in the names of", it says, "in the name of". singular.

ING No it isn't. Go and baptize them in the name of the KING, and the QUEEN, and the HOLY PRIEST, obviously does not means these three beings are ONE in any sense of the word! Just as the words in Matt don't mean such.

This is what large red font means:

EXPAND HIS to read ALL replies -

The red is not mad - but a way to differentiate my text from the other text when writing within a post.

*

 

[Awoon]

This whole thread is about "The Religion About Jesus."

It cant be discussed or demonstrated without using the Bible.