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Your POV on the historical Jesus

nPeace

Veteran Member
The search for the historical Jesus is well known to be one of the most problematic issues in Religious Studies - it's really hard to figure out exactly what, if anything, can be safely asserted about the historical Jesus.

What are you guys' opinions?
Did he exist?
What was he like?
What did he do and say?
Did Jesus Christ exist?
It is universally accepted by biblical scholars, without doubt, that Jesus existed.
They consider it a fact, based on a handful (something like five or so) of writings, by a few historians they consider genuine or authentic.

My question is, what makes one or two letters of a Roman historian, and writings of a Jewish historian, more genuine and authentic, than historians like Matthew and Mark... who wrote earlier, and were closely associated with Jesus, and his early footstep followers?

Even if one were to claim that they did not know Jesus (for which there is no evidence for this claim), or other claims, the fact is, these writers wrote much about Jesus' life and ministry, and the followers that formed the Christian congregation - including Paul.

So, it seem quite evident to me, that the only reason, most scholars, and skeptics, dismiss the Gospel writers, and other books of the Christian Greek scriptures, is basically because they include supernatural stuff.
I don't see that as a valid reason to doubt primary sources. In fact, from my perspective, there is more evidence of the reliability, and authenticity of the Bible writers, than Josephus, and Tacitus.
It is these sources that prove to me Jesus existed.

What was Jesus like?
Jesus was exactly as described by those that knew him, and wrote about him in the Christian Greek scriptures.

What did he do and say?
Jesus did and said exactly as described by those that knew him, and wrote about him in the Christian Greek scriptures.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
My question is, what makes one or two letters of a Roman historian, and writings of a Jewish historian, more genuine and authentic, than historians like Matthew and Mark... who wrote earlier, and were closely associated with Jesus, and his early footstep followers?
Not only are those texts of the Roman historians unreliable, no serious theologian accepts that any of the gospel stories was written by a direct disciple of Jesus.
The original version of Mark (the first half of our present version) may have been loosely based on things told by Peter but not in the original order of events (so it was written more like a work of fiction meant to inspire and not like a historical account).
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Me too.. I just wish they had not gilded the lily or hijacked Jewish scripture to conform to Christian ideas.. To me they have just muddied the water.
So you don't believe he was as he claimed - the son of God?
Do you think Jesus lied, or the Bible writers lied, when he claimed to be God's son, come down from heaven, etc. etc.?
Not that I would be surprised at your answer , based on your history of posts. :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Not only are those texts of the Roman historians unreliable, no serious theologian accepts that any of the gospel stories was written by a direct disciple of Jesus.
The original version of Mark (the first half of our present version) may have been loosely based on things told by Peter but not in the original order of events (so it was written more like a work of fiction meant to inspire and not like a historical account).
I don't consider you a reliable source. :) Why should I? What reason would I have for doing so? :)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
So you don't believe he was as he claimed - the son of God?
Do you think Jesus lied, or the Bible writers lied, when he claimed to be God's son, come down from heaven, etc. etc.?
Not that I would be surprised at your answer , based on your history of posts. :)

I think they thought Jesus wasn't enough in his own right so they had to invent walking on water etc.

I think Jesus was a holy man.. and deserving of honest representation. All they did with pilfering Jewish texts is muddy the water, IMO.. They shouldn't have fiddled with scripture.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Did Jesus Christ exist?
It is universally accepted by biblical scholars, without doubt, that Jesus existed.
They consider it a fact, based on a handful (something like five or so) of writings, by a few historians they consider genuine or authentic.

My question is, what makes one or two letters of a Roman historian, and writings of a Jewish historian, more genuine and authentic, than historians like Matthew and Mark... who wrote earlier, and were closely associated with Jesus, and his early footstep followers?

Even if one were to claim that they did not know Jesus (for which there is no evidence for this claim), or other claims, the fact is, these writers wrote much about Jesus' life and ministry, and the followers that formed the Christian congregation - including Paul.

So, it seem quite evident to me, that the only reason, most scholars, and skeptics, dismiss the Gospel writers, and other books of the Christian Greek scriptures, is basically because they include supernatural stuff.
I don't see that as a valid reason to doubt primary sources. In fact, from my perspective, there is more evidence of the reliability, and authenticity of the Bible writers, than Josephus, and Tacitus.
It is these sources that prove to me Jesus existed.

What was Jesus like?
Jesus was exactly as described by those that knew him, and wrote about him in the Christian Greek scriptures.

What did he do and say?
Jesus did and said exactly as described by those that knew him, and wrote about him in the Christian Greek scriptures.

Historically, Mark is seen as one of Peter's disciples. The historian Papias in the 2nd Century refers to him as such. The historian Papias in the 2nd Century refers to him as such. Likewise, the evidence in the narrative, for example, indicates that Peter was a significant source for most of the material, and most theologians accept Mark as "Peter's" Gospel.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
I think they thought Jesus wasn't enough in his own right so they had to invent walking on water etc.

I think Jesus was a holy man.. and deserving of honest representation. All they did with pilfering Jewish texts is muddy the water, IMO.. They shouldn't have fiddled with scripture.
Who did? Who were these frauds?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Historically, Mark is seen as one of Peter's disciples. The historian Papias in the 2nd Century refers to him as such. The historian Papias in the 2nd Century refers to him as such. Likewise, the evidence in the narrative, for example, indicates that Peter was a significant source for most of the material, and most theologians accept Mark as "Peter's" Gospel.
So Peter lied to Mark, or Mark just made up fables?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Why can't I dismiss them by faith? How is that any less valid than accepting them by faith, or any other idea?
The reason for the contradictions is likely the fact of multiple authors not collaborating with one another and creating conflicting accounts, as with the two genealogies or the two creation stories

When I say you can't "easily" contradict the Gospels I meant that
WHERE YOU CAN VERIFY CLAIMS THESE CLAIMS PAN OUT.

ie There WAS a Jewish temple, a Casesar, a Pontius Pilot, a
town called Nazareth (after a lot of searching) etc..
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
The search for the historical Jesus is well known to be one of the most problematic issues in Religious Studies - it's really hard to figure out exactly what, if anything, can be safely asserted about the historical Jesus.

What are you guys' opinions?
Did he exist?
What was he like?
What did he do and say?

Contemporary history of Jesus?,well we can forget that but to coin Johnny cash "your own personal Jesus" there's much to admire in the story.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
The question of whether the Galilean, first century Jewish preacher named Jesus - who was crucified in Roman-occupied Judea by its fifth prefect Pontius Pilate - 'existed', is not a 'live' topic of great debate or interest in critical-historical research. The focus for scholars is overwhelmingly upon your second question; "what was he like?" and the answer diverges quite dramatically, in most cases, from the traditional Christian account once you get passed the uncontroversial elements that the majority of researchers have accepted as credible (i.e. his baptism by John, the incident in the Temple complex in Jerusalem, his crucifixion, his posthumous deification by his followers soon after his death and the fact that messianic/apocalyptic expectations circled around him).

Nearly all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed:


"There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church’s imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that" (Burrdige 2004, p. 34).​


As in any discipline where there is a broad research consensus among accredited experts (such as the scientific consensus on global warming), there are obviously some very good reasons why there is a broad scholarly consensus on the matter by scholars across a wide range of beliefs and backgrounds, including atheists and agnostics (e.g. Bart Ehrman, Maurice Casey, Paula Fredriksen) and Jews (e.g. Geza Vermes, Hyam Maccoby).

The question of whether he existed at all is a curiosity that, for some inexplicable reason (outside the very fringes of the academic world, as with Carrier), commands an undue level of attention in popular discourse but really doesn't interest most serious scholars. The disconnect is rather big.

I really don't understand why this is the case: in most other research fields, interested lay men and women (such as, in the physical sciences or even other branches of historical study) typically defer to the consensus of those who are qualified to speak with authority on those subject matters, and have undergone years - or even decades - of training to be in a position to do so.

But for some reason, many people outside academia keep banging on about this issue - as if its a topic of pressing critical-analysis and debate in Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton etc. and other centres of scholarship, when it just isn't on their radar. If they aren't fussed about it, why should I be?

The second question "who was the historical Jesus?" is the properly interesting one, regarding which there is to this day no clear consensus beyond the bare essentials of his life and teaching. There are some viable broad-stroked schools of thought among scholars about the historical Jesus and other portraits that are clearly deemed wrong by the majority of serious secular academic researchers (generally faith-based ones).

There are roughly five "mainstream" perspectives, which can be laid out as follows (with the names of some prominent scholars advocating this viewpoint):


Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet
Jesus the Prophet of Social Change

Jesus the Wisdom Sage

Jesus the Man of the Spirit (Charismatic Healer/Hasid)

Jesus the Messiah claimant

So take your pick from those: each 'portrait' has (generally) equally strong scholarly credentials and some persuasive, historically plausible arguments in its favour. And I should note that they aren't all mutually exclusive (my personal reading pulls from both the apocalyptic prophet and prophet of social change perspectives, mostly).
Very well written (as you know), and for me that wasn't as relevant in the end as you'd think(!). Personally that is, and here's why. Though I had the third view for a time (Wisdom Sage), it wasn't the main interest I had that drove my investigation, or rather, not after the initial moments.

Instead, something much more prosaic or...well, basic, pragmatic: I wanted to know if he had something of value to add to my collection of wisdom about how to live along with Lao Tzu (The Tao), Emerson, Jung, May, (and quite a lot of others)...

For my own personal gain, just for the good life, here and now. Pragmatically.

Which would best benefit me among these? --

A) "Love your neighbor as yourself"

B) Ignore your neighbors mostly, except for maybe one that is convenient to help you now and then, and have a few, carefully screened select friends, 2-4, so as to not have too much effort or trouble. Be distantly polite to neighbors if you encounter them by chance

C) Be gregarious and have a good time with come who may, and have a lot of friends, including some neighbors, but not all of them(!) as some aren't worth the time of day, eh...

etc.

Which would I gain the most from? I wanted the good life, here and now.

So, I tested, and tested and tested.

Different times, places, houses, neighborhoods, over more than a decade.

And to my considerable surprise A was not simply better than B, which I'd done the most (and C when I tested it also), but far better. Through the random un-screened person that lived next door, after loving him, I ended up meeting at a party at his house one of the best friends of my life, who was a great mentor, and helped me tremendously.

To huge gain.

And that wasn't the only random neighbor that helped me plenty, to significant gain.

It works way better than it seems as if it could. Dramatically so.

I was astounded, really, when I reflected on it.

So, feeling intrigued, I tried another of Christ's rules for living:
Forgive people entirely, from the heart (no less!), even when they've done nothing to earn it.

And that also made a dramatic improvement, which I could feel. And each time since also.

Works way better than it seems it ought to be able to work.

So, I tried another rule from him.

And then another....

You get the picture.

Repeated testing, varieties of situations, same impressive outcomes: way better than seems likely outcomes.

So, I began to see the pattern, eventually, to my reluctance and foot dragging.

What does He say that doesn't work?

Surely "love your enemy" would be one.

But it works astoundingly (ask if you want that story). Way better than ought to be possible.

So, to me, all the theorizing about Christ is useless, now.


I have actual outcomes instead. That's valuable in an obvious way: the good life is what most people claim they want.

Well, He knows the way. I tested, and that's the finding.

So, I then tested some of the other things, past the rules for living life here and now.

Anyone can.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Gospel writers.. It was political because that's what human beings do.
I've a better theory. Or process really. Put things to the test. Try to falsify, by actually testing the propositions, directly, attempting to disprove by counter example. He gave quite a few rules of how to live life here and now, and they are testable. That's the great thing about a clear rule: one can find out what happens if you do it vs what happens if you do other competing rules (popular ones), and compare outcomes, over and over, seeing what fails and what works, and then trying to make the rule that worked better fail by new tests under varied conditions to attempt to find the point of failure.
See post just above for more on what happened.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
I've a better theory. Or process really. Put things to the test. Try to falsify, by actually testing the propositions, directly, attempting to disprove by counter example. He gave quite a few rules of how to live life here and now, and they are testable. That's the great thing about a clear rule: one can find out what happens if you do it vs what happens if you do other competing rules (popular ones), and compare outcomes, over and over, seeing what fails and what works, and then trying to make the rule that worked better fail by new tests under varied conditions to attempt to find the point of failure.
See post just above for more on what happened.

I read it earlier and agree.. but I think we are talking about the gospels here.
 

Galateasdream

Active Member
The variety of views already presented by posters here is really engaging, and just serves to underscore both the problematic nature of the historical search, the enduring ambiguity/mystery of this character, and how personal a response he garners in many.

I find it very interesting :)
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
They get the blame in the Christian narrative. That is not my claim. I doubt if the Jews had that much control over the Romans. But it did make for a nice point of schism between early believers and non-believers.
Yes, the passage in John has led to more hatred against Jews than anyone would really care to reckon.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
I deleted what I posted here because this thread is in a non debate forum.
 
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